MM3 expected monster combo unnecessarily lethal?

[Otterscrubber]

I was thinking about that, but really it isn't THAT swingy. The initial hit to put the PC unconscious is a +7 vs WILL attack, which is almost certain to be trivially easy against some party members. A WIS cleric aside you won't have many 4th level PCs with a WILL north of 15. The CDG itself is +8 vs AC, with a +5 kicker for attacking a helpless target, practically an auto-hit and a guaranteed kill on a hit.

It is a lot less deadly than old-fashioned SODs. Still one of the deadliest likely combos you're going to run into at those levels. Given that both powers are likely to come into play more than once it IS pretty scary. I agree though, scary is OK and the party CAN thwart it, as long as they have some idea what they're facing. Of course Jackalweres ideally will be something you DON'T understand, hehe. I'd be real careful about how I sprung it on the party.

I thought this was overkill as well, but when compared to previous editions where just about every fight during low levels was very threatening to the softer party members it's not that bad I suppose. A wizard with 4 hp and 1 magic missile went down fast if he was dumb. However a group that is not prepared for this will use typical 4e tactics and assume the party members can survive a round or two and might get caught off guard by this. Hopefully the DM is kind enough to have a practice fight where they see this power in effect so the PCs can plan for it. If they don't then they deserve what they get in the big fight of the night.

 

[Otterscrubber]

It might be worth using a creature that won't deal 'bloodied' hp worth of damage on the coup de grace, or make the Unconscious a little harder to pull off. It does seem a bit odd how easily they can achieve Unconsciousness - I actually recently ran an elite that had an ability that dazed the target for a turn, aftereffect: dazed (save ends), Failed Save: Unconscious... and even with all that prep and delay, I still got off a coup de grace that came within a hair of killing someone outright.

I will be buying the MM3 later today so forgive the ignorant question but: Is this ability of this creature to make someone unconscious an at will or an encounter power? Encounter seems about right, those powers should have dramatic effects in a fight and make the PCs sit up and take notice or change their tactics. At-will, well that would just be mean......there are very few powers that render someone unconscious and for good reason IMHO.

 

[Scribble]

I will be buying the MM3 later today so forgive the ignorant question but: Is this ability of this creature to make someone unconscious an at will or an encounter power? Encounter seems about right, those powers should have dramatic effects in a fight and make the PCs sit up and take notice or change their tactics. At-will, well that would just be mean......there are very few powers that render someone unconscious and for good reason IMHO.

rechargeable.

 

[Solvarn]

Oof might need to tone the encounter down.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I thought this was overkill as well, but when compared to previous editions where just about every fight during low levels was very threatening to the softer party members it's not that bad I suppose. A wizard with 4 hp and 1 magic missile went down fast if he was dumb. However a group that is not prepared for this will use typical 4e tactics and assume the party members can survive a round or two and might get caught off guard by this. Hopefully the DM is kind enough to have a practice fight where they see this power in effect so the PCs can plan for it. If they don't then they deserve what they get in the big fight of the night.

Yeah, it kind of depends on your feelings about how brutal to be. Compared to my last 2e campaign its nothing too horrible. Heck I happily killed off around 1 character per level in that game out of a typical party size of 8-10 PCs. I've tended to be less overall lethal in 4e myself and avoid that kind of gank style rip the guy's throat out when he started the round at full hit points, but if it doesn't happen too often and given that the PCs are still pretty low level its not a really big deal. Perhaps an NPC can be the first target, or someone gets KOed and has to be resurrected or roll up a new character.

I do get the impression MM3 is intended to slant a bit back in the direction of higher lethality. Lots of people certainly feel like 4e encounters aren't really all that threatening. Maybe its more subtle than that. With MM1 monsters if you want an actually dangerous situation you mostly have to load on enough monsters to make the overall issue of the encounter be significantly in doubt. If it goes wrong its almost bound to be a TPK or near-TPK. OTOH if you have a nasty combo like this you can back off on the overall difficulty and still inject a significant personal risk to individual characters. Its unlikely the whole party will get wiped if the encounter is say Level+0 but one character could easily die. Anyway, I think its a good option for the DM to have available if he wants to use it. The only thing that you have to watch out for is the DM that doesn't quite grok that and drops in too many sudden kill combo wielding enemies in one encounter.

 

[Rechan]

I'm just struggling to find a good situation that can fit in, plot wise, that would be the tip off of this lethal tactic. Since the infiltrated JW isn't going to tip his hand.

Iwith a +5 kicker for attacking a helpless target, practically an auto-hit and a guaranteed kill on a hit.

Where is the +5 to hit helpless targets at? I checked the "Helpless" condition and it just says you grant CA.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I'm just struggling to find a good situation that can fit in, plot wise, that would be the tip off of this lethal tactic. Since the infiltrated JW isn't going to tip his hand.


Where is the +5 to hit helpless targets at? I checked the "Helpless" condition and it just says you grant CA.

You should check unconscious.

 

[Rechan]

You should check unconscious.

It says you're both Helpless AND you take a -5 to defenses. Because you're Helpless, you grant CA.

So ultimately it's a +7 to hit.

 

[keterys]

Makes it often pretty hard to miss. On a 'straight to dead' maneuver, in this case, though often not likely to kill PCs otherwise.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It says you're both Helpless AND you take a -5 to defenses. Because you're Helpless, you grant CA.

So ultimately it's a +7 to hit.

Yeah, sorry, I misspoke there, it is actually +7, lol.

I think the intervention of some other plot device is your best bet for a reveal. Maybe the JWs lure the PCs out into the woods intent on doing them in and some other monster attacks the whole group. The PCs get to see the tactic in action (doesn't have to reveal what the JWs are as long as none of them is bloodied). Then their 'friends' turn on them and the fight is on. It could be more intricate than that as well, I'm not sure how complex a plot you want.

Options could include some kind of friendly creature/human/humanoid that warns the party about the JW's tricks, or something like that too. Could even be they find the remains of a previous expedition, complete with a mouldering journal giving a description of the JWs and their tactics. You could combine that with some knowledge checks to make an SC for instance.