MM3: Unholy Toughness on Undead

[Gothmog]

Have I been thick, or is Unholy Toughness something that has only shown up in MM3 for certain undead? Basically it is an exceptional ability that adds Cha mod x HD hit points to an undead creature. I love the idea, since I've always thought undead were a little weak by normal MM standards. What does everyone else think?

 

[Pants]

It's a new idea created for MMIII. I'm assuming it will see use in Libris Mortis.

I like the idea as well. Undead have very weak attack bonuses and saving throws, plus low hit dice so aside from giving them excessively large amounts of HD (like certain undead in the MMII.. famine spirit I'm looking at you!) and getting generally wacky results, this looks like it will help fix the problem.

 

[coyote6]

I'm fairly certain someone said unholy toughness was going to be in Libris Mortis. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a prestige class for intelligent undead (at least the liches & vampires) that ultimately gave them unholy toughness.

It's probably too strong for a feat (you could be talking dozens of hit points, after all), though.

MMIII also makes fairly extensive use of Improved Toughness, especially for the undead.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Undead have very weak attack bonuses and saving throws, plus low hit dice so aside from giving them excessively large amounts of HD (like certain undead in the MMII.

Undead's hit die is a d12, as high as they get. Undead's problem, IMO is not the hit die, or the amount of hit dice, but rather that they don't get bonus hit points unless they took Toughness. The d12 hit die didn't compensate no bonus hit points. Of course, adding extra hit dice requries all sorts of extra tweaking due to monster design requirements such as more skill points and feats that are included, and modifying the creature's vulnerability to spells that affect according to creature's hit dice total.

Zombies should probably have had an Unholy Toughness-like ability, rather than double hit dice. Look at the recent Dragon Magazine issue on animate dead. It analyzed the best three choices for the spell at every level caster between 1st and 20th. Every single optimal option was a skeleton, except for two zombes. The problem being that animate dead limits the animator by the target's hit dice. Since zombies hit dice are doubled, an animated zombie is almost always less optimal than an animated skeleton.


Okay, nuf' of my pet peeve.

 

[Pants]

Undead's hit die is a d12, as high as they get.

Sorry, I meant hit points not hit dice. Just a case of my brain moving too fast for my fingers...

 

[Garnfellow]

MMIII also makes fairly extensive use of Improved Toughness, especially for the undead.

Is Improved Toughness a feat? What does it do?

 

[Pants]

You can see the Unholy Toughness ability in the Boneclaw preview.

Basically it gives Undead extra HP equal to its Cha modifier x its total HD. It is an extraordinary ability.

 

[demiurge1138]

Improved Toughness first appeared in Complete Warrior, and then appeared in MMIII. It gives you 1 hit point per Hit Dice, essentially raising your Con to the next modifier for the purposes of hit points. Like Toughness, the undead can take it, and thus gain more hit points.

Demiurge out.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm fairly certain someone said unholy toughness was going to be in Libris Mortis. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a prestige class for intelligent undead (at least the liches & vampires) that ultimately gave them unholy toughness.

Now building on this concept, I'd love to see "Holy Toughness" as high-level paladin special ability in 4e.

[/dream]