[Modern] Death from Massive Damage

[Matt_Walsh]

Hey,
So I've been looking to make guns (and the campaign in general) a little more dangerous. I was thinking of doing this by altering the Fortitude DC for Death from Massive Damage.

Low-Impact bludgeoning damage (baseball bats, falling, non-subdual unarmed) would be a DC 15. From there the Dc would climb, with a 17 for slashing and piercing low-impact, and 20 as a starting point for high-impact damage (bullets, fire, cars-as-weapons).

Now, I need someone with more experience with firearms to help me with this. I know that a .50 caliber is gonna do more damage than a 9mm, but i don't know where the rest would fall into place. Maybe just a list of the rounds presented in the d20 Modern book, listed from smallest to largest?

Any help is most appreciated, as are comments/flames on the idea of raising the DC based on damage type. Also, I am aware of the fatalities that are gonna arise from this - it's the fantasy/modern setting, so healing is plentiful.

-Matt

 

[Mistwell]

Hey,
So I've been looking to make guns (and the campaign in general) a little more dangerous. I was thinking of doing this by altering the Fortitude DC for Death from Massive Damage.

Low-Impact bludgeoning damage (baseball bats, falling, non-subdual unarmed) would be a DC 15. From there the Dc would climb, with a 17 for slashing and piercing low-impact, and 20 as a starting point for high-impact damage (bullets, fire, cars-as-weapons).

Now, I need someone with more experience with firearms to help me with this. I know that a .50 caliber is gonna do more damage than a 9mm, but i don't know where the rest would fall into place. Maybe just a list of the rounds presented in the d20 Modern book, listed from smallest to largest?

Any help is most appreciated, as are comments/flames on the idea of raising the DC based on damage type. Also, I am aware of the fatalities that are gonna arise from this - it's the fantasy/modern setting, so healing is plentiful.

-Matt

1) There is no "death from massive damage rule". You don't actually die from massive damage, just go unconcious at -1 HP. Subtle but important difference.

2) Caliber is already factored into the dice of damage done by guns. Here is what was posted on the WOTC on this subject: "The damage IS based on caliber. Look a bit closer; 9mm does 2d6, .50AE does 2d8, 7.62 does 2d10, 5.56 does 2d8. The damages are static, the only thing affected by the gun is the range, which is proportionate to the barrel length via a mathematical algorithm (basically 0-1 inches = 10 ft | +10 feet per extra 2 inches)."

In addition, apparently caliber is not nearly as important to actual damage done by a bullet as many people think.

3) I would not vary non-bullet versus bullet DCs. Really, a basebat upside the head does a lot of damage, as does a bullet. Ask an emergency technician, and they will tell you it is the knife wounds that really mess people up much more than bullets. If you want the game more deadly, just increase the DC across the board. But you don't want to go looking up categories of weapons to find a DC when in the middle of the game. Just pick a DC and use that for everyone. It will make the game flow better, and is about as realistic as trying to separate weapon types.

 

[Matt_Walsh]

1) bah ... semantics. You should have read my mind to know what I meant

2) Thanks for the list. I didn't notice that correlation. Varying the damage dealt is nice and all, until the PCs hit 10th level (with 10th level Fortitude saves and 60+ hit points) and they're shrugging off bullets. Also, without knowing much about the subject, I would assume caliber must have some effect - a larger mass at approximately the same speed should do more damage. I mean, they use .50 caliber shells for sniper rifles instead of 9mm for a reason (one would presume).

3) Personal history time. I was hit on the head with a baseball bat by a fellow who wasn't looking about as he warmed up. I was wearing a baseball helmet. I woke up half an hour later in the hospital, bruised but no worse for the wear. Now, do you think a bullet, even one shot from a reasonable distance away, simply would knock me out? I'll buy that knives are dangerous - but certainly more people live after knife wounds than after bullet wounds.

Also, my group is BIG into realism, so much so that I'm beginning to doubt if d20 Modern is the right system to use. Looking up different DCs wouldn't be a hassle - it would just be a different aspect of the weapon (along with range and damage).

Thanks
-Matt

 

[Unseelie]

2) Thanks for the list. I didn't notice that correlation. Varying the damage dealt is nice and all, until the PCs hit 10th level (with 10th level Fortitude saves and 60+ hit points) and they're shrugging off bullets.

True, but they're probably being shot at by a many more people. Throw enough lead at them and they will eventually fail a Fort save.

You could, I suppose, raise the DC as they take more damage. +1 per 5 or something like that. I know that variations of what I just suggested are fairly popular 'house rules'.

Also, without knowing much about the subject, I would assume caliber must have some effect - a larger mass at approximately the same speed should do more damage. I mean, they use .50 caliber shells for sniper rifles instead of 9mm for a reason (one would presume).

Several reasons... mass is certainly one of them. The main reason why there are .50 cal sniper rifles, however, is trajectory and balistics. It's a remarkably accurate round over long distances (flat line out to close to one mile). If they could that level of accuracy out of a smaller round, most snipers would prefer to carry a lighter weapon I suspect.

When it all comes down to it... a .50 cal shot to the head and a .223 shot to the head still likely leave you just as dead.

Also, my group is BIG into realism, so much so that I'm beginning to doubt if d20 Modern is the right system to use.

You're likely right... if your players are into a bit of the ultra realism, D20M is likely not the best system for them.

 

[Mistwell]

2) Thanks for the list. I didn't notice that correlation. Varying the damage dealt is nice and all, until the PCs hit 10th level (with 10th level Fortitude saves and 60+ hit points) and they're shrugging off bullets. Also, without knowing much about the subject, I would assume caliber must have some effect - a larger mass at approximately the same speed should do more damage. I mean, they use .50 caliber shells for sniper rifles instead of 9mm for a reason (one would presume).

You must be thinking of D&D. In d20M, your Fortitude save does not go up all that fast (particularly in a non-magic game). Even at 10th level the Fort save will be an issue.

Caliber really doesn't have a whole lot of correlation to damage done. The sniper rifle is more accurate at long distance, not much more damaging per shot. If your players are "that" into realism, they will know that (or they will ask someone who knows it).

3) Personal history time. I was hit on the head with a baseball bat by a fellow who wasn't looking about as he warmed up. I was wearing a baseball helmet. I woke up half an hour later in the hospital, bruised but no worse for the wear. Now, do you think a bullet, even one shot from a reasonable distance away, simply would knock me out? I'll buy that knives are dangerous - but certainly more people live after knife wounds than after bullet wounds.

If a bullet does not outright kill you, the knife wound actually DOES run a higher risk of killing you. Bullet wounds tend to go clean through - it either hits a major organ, or is generally repairable. Knife wounds tend to bleed, infect, and cause all sorts of additional damage.

You were obviously lucky with the bat incident. However, note that you went unconcious. You may very well have NOT gone unconcious from a bullet wound. And that is what you are talking about - making guns more effective at knocking people out (not killing them) than other weapons, regardless of damage done.

In addition, it is quite possible that a bullet can have only a minor impact on you. The movies make it seem like single bullets are super-killers - in reality, it usually takes MANY shots to kill someone (and that is what the military and police are trained to do, shoot someone many times to make them go down). If you were to hit someone in the head with a baseball bat many times, or shoot them many times, you may well be doing exactly the same amount of unconciousness-causing damage with each, though actual damage would differ (and does in the game).

Finally, remember also that this is built into weapon damage - a gun does more damage than a bat, making a gun much more likely to cause you to require a massive damage roll.

If your players are into realism, I don't think your variation would make it more realistic.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The general view of most gun experts these days is that the most important characteristic of a round intended to have 'stopping power' is penetration (up to the point where the bullet is capable of fully penetrating through an individual standing side-on to the firer). The reason for this is that the only way to actually stop someone quickly with a bullet is to hit and damage an immediately vital organ (brain, spine, major muscles, heart).

A larger calibre bullet makes a slightly bigger permanent wound channel, and therefore has a slightly larger chance of that wound channel touching on an organ.

A smaller calibre bullet travelling with the same speed has a MUCH deeper wound channel, and has a MUCH better chance of that channel touching an organ.

Once you get to rifle bullets, pretty much they ALL penetrate out the other side of the target, so larger calibre can become more important.

Accuracy and ROF are more important, which is why assault rifles tend to be lower calibre.

Most anti personnel 'sniper rifles' are modified assault rifles, and do not fire huge bullets - since you're going for vital shots anyway, calibre is largely irrelevant.

The .50 sniper rifles are almost entirely intended for anti-material roles (shooting light vehicles etc.) and hence are very rare.

 

[Matt_Walsh]

I see I came to the right place! Thanks all.

BTW, "in to realism" and "knowing realism" are two very different things ...

 

[danzig138]

3) Now, do you think a bullet, even one shot from a reasonable distance away, simply would knock me out?

That depends on many things. One night, my cousin, myself, and several friends were out and about, causing trouble and the like. Well, my cousin, 6', 210 pounds or so, got shot in the head. The bullet entered the left side of his forehead, about 1.5 inches above his eyebrow, and exited just above his left ear. He was shot with a .25 handgun. Didn't knock him out. It didn't knock him down. He didn't even know that he had been shot. His head stung and he walked away. We spent the rest of the night getting even more drunk. It was two weeks before he bothered to go to the hospital, and then it was only because his wife found out that he'd been shot. Now, what it did do, in addition to the beer, was make him a little less coherent for the night.

Also, my group is BIG into realism, so much so that I'm beginning to doubt if d20 Modern is the right system to use. Looking up different DCs wouldn't be a hassle - it would just be a different aspect of the weapon (along with range and damage).

I would venture that if your group is big into realism, then d20M probably isn't the game for you. At least not without too much work. it would probably be easier to just get a different game. I understand from reading MBs and such that GURPS is very realistic. Either way, good luck to you.

 

[Plane Sailing]

2) Thanks for the list. I didn't notice that correlation. Varying the damage dealt is nice and all, until the PCs hit 10th level (with 10th level Fortitude saves and 60+ hit points) and they're shrugging off bullets.

Just wanted to point out that a 10th Strong or Tough hero only has a +5 Fort save, the best you could get would be a Tough3/Daredevil7, with +8 Fort save.

Even figuring the Con bonuses into this, a DC15 save is still a fairly serious threat.

Saves go up more slowly than in D&D, and there are not the huge range of save boosting spells and magic items which a 10th level D&D character would have.

Cheers

 

[Petrosian]

Actually, if one wants to raise the threat level of D20M, i do not think raising the DC or threshold for megadamage is the way to go.

The element that seems missing is not " a lucky shot can kill me" but rather "any shot can disable me."

So, just off the top of my head... keep DC 15 for the md save, but change the rule to "If the save succeeds, the character is stunned for 1 round."

loss of an action, loss of dex bonus and potentially dropping things is not something the guy with 60 hp and a +X fort save can laugh off or play the odds on. Now the threat from any shot is losing the action so your guys wont be as willing to "just take the hit" in order to get a setup.