Modified spell lists -- the DMG witch, for example. Does it work?

[Driddle]

Is it worthwhile for the gaming group (players and DM) to agree on variant spell lists for core classes, ala the sorcerous witch from the DMG? Once you start the process of substituting this spell for that spell, who gets the final say and does the final product still end up balanced? And is it worth the trouble to keep track of those variations throughout the character's career?

 

[BiggusGeekus]

I think you mean the DMG2 (which I do not have, so I'm guessing) or do you mean the Adept from the DMG?


If spellcasting progression is similar and the spell level is the same, you should be OK. The spells are balanced for spell level, so they're generally interchangeable. That being said....

Things to look out for:

1) Divine vs Arcane - Divine casters get to wear armor and cast spells. So, using the core rules, you could have an adept (divine caster) with the lightning bolt spell, make a divine wand of lightning bolt and charge into combat zapping everybody in full plate mail. That's still OK for the core rules because Adepts kind of suck and have a slow spell progression and you have to take a feat and a level of fighter to pull this stunt off. But it's something to think about for your new spell list. Especially look out for touch attack spells.

2) Hybrids (rangers & paladins) - these can be tricky for the same reasons.

3) Balance between classes - if you give someone the best spells from both lists, you're asking for trouble. You're smart enough to look out for that though.


Just my two cents!

 

[Aus_Snow]

Nope, the actual DMG has a little section on a witch variant.

No idea if it works, sorry.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Nope, the actual DMG has a little section on a witch variant.

i suk

Oh well, at least I have some nice reading to look forward to tonight!

 

[Stormborn]

Is it worthwhile for the gaming group (players and DM) to agree on variant spell lists for core classes, ala the sorcerous witch from the DMG? Once you start the process of substituting this spell for that spell, who gets the final say and does the final product still end up balanced? And is it worth the trouble to keep track of those variations throughout the character's career?

"Worthwhile" depends on your definition. Is it valuable for capturing a particular flavor to a setting or character? Possibly, especially for DMs who want to shape a campaign setting.

In general I think its best for a DM to instigate based on desired campaign, but I would be OK with a player asking for something unique as well if it was based on character concept and not simply a desire to put together a unique set of "Kewl Powrz" (not that any of my players would, but just for the sake of general application.) Ultimately, however, it would be the DMs decision to make a tailored spell list, not the players.

I would start with finding out why the available casters do not fit the desired flavor and how changing something like a spell list might change that. For example, I have been toying with changing the spell list for the bard to make the character a more planar vagabond type (making some additional changes to other class features as well, but using the bard as the baseline.)

When making choices about spells I would use the established spell levels as a guideline. If a full caster I would start with either the Cleric and the Wizard or the Favored Soul and Sorcerer as my baseline. Spells that are available to both arcane and divine classes would be learned as the closest equivalent. Spell only available to one or the other would be judege differently if being added to a different caster types list. For example, most arcane spells that have a good offensive capacity would be bumped up one level for a mainly divine casting class while divine spells that heal or repair damage would be bumped up one level for an mainly arcane casting class. If the class had a very narrowly defined set of spells with few options available and few spells known I would be more willing to allow spells from one list to stay at the same level for another type of caster.

If as a DM I had been asked to do this I would consult with the player about their desire for the class and would create a spell list that covered about 3 spell levels (s ay 0-3 if starting at first level) and see what they thought. If the campaign was intended to or simply did go longer than that I would create the next 3 levels at least one level before the PC would be able to access them.


On the other hand, if not creating a whole new class, as the witch in the DMG, I would likely simply allow or disallow, or if a player request or not, spells on a case by case basis. For example, a "white" sorcerer with some kind of divine heritage wants to be able to heal, I would say that the healing spells on the bard list were OK but not allow other healing spells; or if a Cleric of the Fire God wanted to use some of the offensive fire based spells from the wizard list I would allow them but treat them as 1 level higher than the listed spell level for the wizard.

 

[rgard]

Is it worthwhile for the gaming group (players and DM) to agree on variant spell lists for core classes, ala the sorcerous witch from the DMG? Once you start the process of substituting this spell for that spell, who gets the final say and does the final product still end up balanced? And is it worth the trouble to keep track of those variations throughout the character's career?

A little more freeform approach would be to use the spell caster class from UA's generic classes. Even if the player wants to take 'all the best spells' the player is still limited in numbers of spells known.

We've used the generic classes in my campaign and others (and used them along with regular classes...naughty I know) and haven't had any problems. The 'spells known' evens it out.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Driddle]

I appreciate the feedback on the balance issue. But how much trouble is it in actual practice to keep track of homebrewed class modifications, especially over several levels of adventuring?

 

[Stormborn]

I appreciate the feedback on the balance issue. But how much trouble is it in actual practice to keep track of homebrewed class modifications, especially over several levels of adventuring?

How much trouble is it for someone to sit down and take a few minutes and type it all out? How much trouble is it to keep an extra piece of paper that says "Spell List" on it with your character sheet? Basically little to none. Without more information I would have to guess that you are making this more complicated than it really is.

 

[el-remmen]

In my campaign, every priesthood has its own spell list reflecting their ethos, the role of their priest, and balanced agains the special class abilities they gain.

It has worked very well for us.

You can see them here: http://aquerra.wikispaces.com/Divine+Spell+Lists

 

[rgard]

I appreciate the feedback on the balance issue. But how much trouble is it in actual practice to keep track of homebrewed class modifications, especially over several levels of adventuring?

Not difficult at all.

Try this:

It's the DM's responsibility to approve the mods. It's the player's responisibility to keep track of the mods and give an updated list of mods to the DM when requested.