(Mongoose) Book of Immortals - Out Now!

[Eremite]

Thanks for that last post in particular, Shannon. This sounds absolutely perfect to combine with the excellent Dawnforge setting from FFG. Hmmm, not only am I going to buy this book, I think that dormant Dawnforge campaign is about to be woken up...!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Eremite mate!

Upper Krust,

How long before your IH hits the stands (or RPGNow)?

I don't want to hijack this thread...you can find the appropriate thread in the House Rules forum here.

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1843931#post1843931

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Shannon!

Well, given I wrote the Mongoose book, I can assure you nothing was taken from the other project.

As the writer of the 'other project' I wish you the best of luck with your own endeavours. I have long been an advocate of epic/immortal gaming and I am thrilled that a company as prolific as Mongoose are tackling the subject. More such products can only be a good thing for the consumer and the profile of epic/immortal gaming.

It appears we may share some sources but that's a good thing.

...and inevitable, given the subject matter.

Mythology and the historical study of religion should inform any book about immortality. After all the quest for eternal life/godhood is one of the oldest recorded symbolic impulses. An author would be foolish to ignore thousands of years of great backstory.

Indeed.

I did note, from various comments, that you divorced immortals from deities on a conscious level, yet you still integrate deities vis a vis 'covenants'. May I ask why you made the distinction (between immortals and gods)?

Monsters? Not so much. By the time you achieve a few steps along the path anything other than another Immortal is more a nuisance than a threat.

I'm not sure I agree with that, I always got a kick out of the original gold box monsters myself.

 

[skalvar]

Hi Shannon!
As the writer of the 'other project' I wish you the best of luck with your own endeavours. I have long been an advocate of epic/immortal gaming and I am thrilled that a company as prolific as Mongoose are tackling the subject. More such products can only be a good thing for the consumer and the profile of epic/immortal gaming.

Thanks. Good luck with the Immortals Book as well. For myself, I'm taking a break from full-time RPG writing at the moment to take care of my three month old son. But I'll be back.

I did note, from various comments, that you divorced immortals from deities on a conscious level, yet you still integrate deities vis a vis 'covenants'. May I ask why you made the distinction (between immortals and gods)?

My models for this supplement were, in order:
1) The Gold Box
2) Greek Mystery Religions
3) Chinese Taoist interpretations of the Heaven/Earth balance

I took tone and method from the gold box. From the Greeks I borrowed a clear ritual progression from mortality to becoming 'like onto a god'. From the Chinese an elaborate cosmology peopled with functionaries with a simply mind-boggling array of powers.

In order to keep with the Greeks, Immortals (not demi-gods and the like) become like gods but not gods in and of themselves. They share in the divine power until they transcend, at which point they pass from this supplement to something completely different.

Covenants and wellsprings represent two distinct approachs to this 'divine power'. With covenants the Immortal performs deeds pleasing to a divinity/granting power, even emulating the actions it took during the world's creation. This brings the Immortal closer in nature and power to the god(s) until he finally becomes a god himself. Wellsprings allow the Immortal to take up the gods tools of creation and destruction, eventually allowing them to recreate themselves as gods.

RE: Monsters

I'm not sure I agree with that, I always got a kick out of the original gold box monsters myself.

I did too. Yet you could stack D20 monster books up to the ceiling at this point. So, rather than spend print space on yet more monsters I decided to tackle the more complicated issue of modeling mythic tests as well as combats. BoI has 17 of the 34 structures I worked out: I couldn't get the others balanced to my satisfaction without dismantling fairly substantial parts of the core rules. Since my scope of work involved building a game to run alongside standard epic progression rather than supplanting it entirely...

Good luck and good gaming!
Shannon Kalvar

 

[skalvar]

Thanks for that last post in particular, Shannon. This sounds absolutely perfect to combine with the excellent Dawnforge setting from FFG. Hmmm, not only am I going to buy this book, I think that dormant Dawnforge campaign is about to be woken up...!

Go flip open the cover of Age of Legend. There might be a reason for BoI and Dawnforge working reasonably well together. Not that I built it for that specifically (BoI is a Mongoose product) but some things you just cannot help...

Good luck and good gaming!
Shannon

 

[Eremite]

Go flip open the cover of Age of Legend. There might be a reason for BoI and Dawnforge working reasonably well together. Not that I built it for that specifically (BoI is a Mongoose product) but some things you just cannot help...

Good luck and good gaming!
Shannon

Silly me! I now remember that you contributed to AoL and even posted to Paths of Legend once or twice. You and your co-authors did a great job on AoL; hehe... this augurs well for BoI, eh?

Anyway, your posts have convinced me that BoI is a "must have".

And thanks, U-K, for the link. I've checked that thread out many times but not for a while. I was hoping not so much for a hijack but a quick... it will be out on (date). Anyway, good luck with it!

 

[vsper]

Other oldies

The gold box set is cool. Another interesting and hard source to find is the first book by Wizards called "Primal Order", published in 1990. Very good book if you can find it. A friend of mine has it. Its rather ironic since it handles immortality so well and now it seems Wizards isn't up to doing it very well.
Vsper

"If wishes were fishes, we'd all be casting nets" Dune

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Shannon!

Thanks. Good luck with the Immortals Book as well.

Thanks. Its been tough going, with hindsight I was undoubtedly overstretching myself wanting to write, design and illustrate a 400 page book, but I'll get there in the end.

For myself, I'm taking a break from full-time RPG writing at the moment to take care of my three month old son.

A belated congratulations and best wishes to you and your family.

But I'll be back.

Heh heh! You can't keep a good man down.

My models for this supplement were, in order:
1) The Gold Box
2) Greek Mystery Religions
3) Chinese Taoist interpretations of the Heaven/Earth balance

I took tone and method from the gold box. From the Greeks I borrowed a clear ritual progression from mortality to becoming 'like onto a god'. From the Chinese an elaborate cosmology peopled with functionaries with a simply mind-boggling array of powers.

I'm curious about that third point you mention, did you create your own cosmology?

In order to keep with the Greeks, Immortals (not demi-gods and the like) become like gods but not gods in and of themselves. They share in the divine power until they transcend, at which point they pass from this supplement to something completely different.

...probably into mine. I made a point of removing all limits while still trying to keep things balanced, fun and interesting.

Covenants and wellsprings represent two distinct approachs to this 'divine power'. With covenants the Immortal performs deeds pleasing to a divinity/granting power, even emulating the actions it took during the world's creation. This brings the Immortal closer in nature and power to the god(s) until he finally becomes a god himself. Wellsprings allow the Immortal to take up the gods tools of creation and destruction, eventually allowing them to recreate themselves as gods.

Reminds me somewhat of Immanence and Transcendence.

One area I concentrated upon was how glory/worship could be a main ingredient in becoming a deity, so I developed a system to gauge the amount of worship derived from a characters actions. Its quite nifty. Lets you create a religion around the deity and vice versa.

RE: Monsters

I did too. Yet you could stack D20 monster books up to the ceiling at this point.

True, although the one creature niche not really catered for to any degree is epic monsters (Matthew take note*). Added to that WotC's Epic Level Handbook monsters were somewhat lacklustre (with obvious exceptions, Abominations and so forth). So theres definately a dearth there to be exploited.

*

So, rather than spend print space on yet more monsters I decided to tackle the more complicated issue of modeling mythic tests as well as combats.

Well I am looking forward to reading what you came up with.

BoI has 17 of the 34 structures I worked out: I couldn't get the others balanced to my satisfaction without dismantling fairly substantial parts of the core rules. Since my scope of work involved building a game to run alongside standard epic progression rather than supplanting it entirely...

I know only too well what you mean. I had to completely rebuild WotCs Challenge Rating/Encounter Level rules from the ground up (the fruits of those labours you can see in Bad Axe Games - Grim Tales) since they noticeably start to disintigrate after 20th-level.

 

[skalvar]

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply. My life mostly consists of taking care of my son. Funny thing, that.

Anyway, to answer your questions:

RE: Cosmology
Not really. I implemented (through various bindings) a set of assumptions about how Immortal beings function within a world. "Author made" cosmologies tend towards the shallow end of the pool mostly because a) we are as a rule not cosmologists/scholars in related disciplines and b) no matter how brilliant we think we are we do not have thirty plus years to do the research and design.

The closest real-world models with the feel I wanted were the Chinese heavenly beauracy and the intellectual tools they use to describe the universe's processes. I grafted those onto the ontologically weak but relatively well known D&D structures.

RE: Limits
I think we diverge in our approach on this point. You see, I honestly believe we've gone too far down the road of removing barriers on character action. So, while I removed limits on character actions on one side (power to effect the mortal world) I increased them on others (binding oaths mandating or preventing actions, limits to specific environments, social obligations to other Immortals).

Using a real world religious analogy: in Hindu myths the gods wield far more power than humans. Buddhism, which accepted the whole deific structure whole-cloth, went on to say that yes, gods hold more power but only humans have the ability to release themselves from the wheel of kharma. Their extreme power places limits on the choices they can make.

So, combine the Greek idea of ascention though ritual action (rather than human worship) with the Chinese (Taoist/Confusian) concept of an ordered world extending from the depths of hell to the vaults of heaven and the Hindu idea of immortals/gods as trapped actors and you are somewhat close to what I wanted to write.

Oh, the first person to note one of the central ironies of the book in light of the above description and the challenges gets...something. I'll figure it out later.

Ah! I am called! Excuse me.

Good luck and good gaming!
Shannon