Mongoose's Strongholds and Dynasties

[Arnwyn]

Thank you, Cavalorn. I think that is the kind of information some of us are looking for in making the decision as to which is the right book for out campaigns... I also appreciate the insights into the "whys" of the decisions. That helps a lot in evaluating the usefulness.

I know it has been for me. I have been eagerly following these threads, and the information I have been getting from them is invaluable to determine what system best suits my needs. So far, Mongoose's S&D is looking very good in that regard.

Does S&D handle population growth, starting from scratch? For example, if the PCs build a stronghold (whatever that may be) in the middle of nowhere and claim land, is there any rules/guidelines to note how fast a population will spring up/grow (eg. a blacksmith shows up shortly after, then a tavern, inn, supply shop, etc)? Is there anything in there that notes infrastructure spending by PCs, and how it affects this growth (eg. the PCs build a road from their stronghold to the nearest major road - how does this affect the population growth in the PCs region)?

That is, what I'm looking for (hoping for?) is kingdom-management that starts from the PCs' actions and grows from there, with rules and clear guidelines that are based on PC actions.

 

[Cavalorn]

Does S&D handle population growth, starting from scratch?

Hang on, I know that eyes-and-triangle icon. If you are on the Something Positive LJ, then you'll know why I dedicate Strongholds & Dynasties to someone called PeeJee in the Designer's Notes section.

Ahem. Back to the subject. Yes, S&D does indeed handle population growth, linking it in to the food supply in the region and other concerns.

For example, if the PCs build a stronghold (whatever that may be) in the middle of nowhere and claim land, is there any rules/guidelines to note how fast a population will spring up/grow (eg. a blacksmith shows up shortly after, then a tavern, inn, supply shop, etc)?

At that level of focus, what gets built is up to the players in charge and any NPCs that the DM assigns to the job. This is where the first half of the book comes in. It is all about *buildings*, not just strongholds. Part one tells you how to build a stockade, longhouse, outbuilding, rough stone wall, tree platform, bothy, et cetera. Then you get the stone buildings, e.g. lighthouses, churches and manors, and after that you get the major fortifications. By drawing upon the labour force of the population, you can build what you like. The bit I was particularly pleased with is that you can harvest the materials to build your structures locally.

What I wanted to achieve was a system whereby some shipwrecked PCs could salvage the wood from their trashed vessel, build a shelter with it and take that as the starting point for their kingdom.

Is there anything in there that notes infrastructure spending by PCs, and how it affects this growth

Yes there is. Such things work on a kingdom level more than a local one. There aren't a multitude of options, but there are things you can do to influence population change.

That is, what I'm looking for (hoping for?) is kingdom-management that starts from the PCs' actions and grows from there, with rules and clear guidelines that are based on PC actions.

S&D is very PC-centric, if such a term exists. The bulk of the kingdom management chapter details 'governing actions' that a PC who occupies a given office can take. These directly influence what happens in the kingdom.

If I may be so bold, can I suggest that you have a look through Strongholds in the friendly local games store, if you have one, and see what you think? I'd like to think that it would supply your requirements, but obviously I'm not about to say 'yes, go buy it'.

 

[Arnwyn]

What I wanted to achieve was a system whereby some shipwrecked PCs could salvage the wood from their trashed vessel, build a shelter with it and take that as the starting point for their kingdom.

Just with that, you've pretty much got a sale right there. Wicked.

Yes there is. Such things work on a kingdom level more than a local one. There aren't a multitude of options, but there are things you can do to influence population change.

Good enough for me. With that, the seed, guidelines, and rules have already been detailed, so it would (seem to) be easy to add more options if needed. Great.

If I may be so bold, can I suggest that you have a look through Strongholds in the friendly local games store, if you have one, and see what you think?

Already planning to do so!

 

[johnsemlak]

I'm still waiting for a comparative review of Empire (AEG) vs. Strongholds & Dynasties (Mongoose) vs. Fields of Blood (Eden Studios).

I want to know which are their strong points and weak points (realm management and mass combat), and which one is the better product overall.

Well, we may be getting closer to seeing such a comparison.

Fields of Blood shipped recently, announcement here:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=71464

All three products should be available soon and hopefully we'll have good comparative reviews.

 

[Ranger REG]

Thanks. Although I suspect the comparative review will probably be finished AFTER New Year (if one does the research and playtesting properly and thoroughly, finding strengths and weaknesses within each products).

 

[johnsemlak]

For those that didn't see it a good review of Strongholds and Dynasties was posted here:
http://www.enworld.org/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=active&reviewer=Selvarin&product=BoSaD

My main quibble with the review is it makes me want to buy it

Suppose I'll wait for FoB and have a look at that though.

 

[Silveras]

I really should have been more specific- the rules given work very well for trade between PC controlled kingdoms, but lack definition for NPC domains, I will likely come up with a chart for NPC trade interests, and a sheet to record them on, but it would have been nice - not all provinces will be under PC control. A sea and river born equivalent to the roads rating, covering just how much cargo can be shipped during a given month, would also have been useful trade by water actually having been more common than that by road for quite a long time. (Breaks into an off key rendition of the Eerie Canal...) I could also have used a system for semi-randomly placing the resources for a given province. In many ways this is much more a player's book than one for DMs. A DMs supplement for this book would be well appreciated, but by its nature cater to a significantly smaller audience.

I was not aware of Soverieign Magic, I am adding that to my list for Santa. A Divine version would also be a great addition! I will keep my eyes open for it. Good stuff!

As I said I ran a Birthright campaign, and this book should allow me to run a similar game in 3e. The addition of gunpowder is nice, my homebrew setting is set during a period analogous to our reformation/counter reformation - with war, economics,religion and politics factoring in to produce around a century of warfare. (They are now around year 3 of thirty years of war in the area they started in.)

My other difficulty is purely personal taste - the book goes into far greater detail on stronghold building than I really need, but the rules for establishing other structures is so integral to the same system that I can't really complain.

For some reason it is much easier to describe what problems that I have with any given book than come up with a coherent explanation of why I like it. I very much like Strongholds & Dynasties, but I am not sure my post adequately stated that fact. The resource and warfare sections are very useful indeed, creating a much more detailed system than that explored in Birthright. The new version of the OMCS is also very nice, and ties in well with the resource and taxation system in the book. And since I already own Seas of Blood adding the navies and trading vessels is also relatively easy.

And a quick question in the event that anyone from Mongoose reads this topic again - will the province sheets be available as PDFs on your web site any time soon? Being able to print them up before each session would be very helpful.

The Auld Grump

First, I saw the forms on Mongoose's site the other night, so they are out.

Second, I wonder if you have had a chance to implement the systems yet. I have been finding difficulties with the resources (esp. regarding food in a large province) on the Comparison of Birthright - Strongholds & Dynasties - Magical Medieval Society - Empire thread. I would be curious to see if you are finding or avoiding the same.

 

[Silveras]

Challenge: Large City Province

In comparing Strongholds & Dynasties against the other books in a similar vein, I have come across a difficulty with the resource management system. I present it here as a challenge, and invite anyone with the book to show me where I am wrong.

As near as I can tell, a province with a Large City (population 12,000 - 25,000) will be unable to support it. Dramatically short on food, it seems the system in the book breaks down with large populations.

The challenge: Show me a working resource setup for a province with a mid-range Large City (population 17,000). Work out the total population for the province (preferably using the guidelines in the book), then how the resource breakdown. Be as generous as you like with what resources are found in the province, within the bounds of the rules. Assume it is June/July, so any seasonal resources are available. Assume a long-established infrastructure, so all necessary "industrial buildings" and any needed skills are available.

 

[Emiricol]

<snip>

Ahem. Back to the subject. Yes, S&D does indeed handle population growth, linking it in to the food supply in the region and other concerns.



At that level of focus, what gets built is up to the players in charge and any NPCs that the DM assigns to the job. This is where the first half of the book comes in. It is all about *buildings*, not just strongholds. Part one tells you how to build a stockade, longhouse, outbuilding, rough stone wall, tree platform, bothy, et cetera. Then you get the stone buildings, e.g. lighthouses, churches and manors, and after that you get the major fortifications. By drawing upon the labour force of the population, you can build what you like. The bit I was particularly pleased with is that you can harvest the materials to build your structures locally.

What I wanted to achieve was a system whereby some shipwrecked PCs could salvage the wood from their trashed vessel, build a shelter with it and take that as the starting point for their kingdom.
<snip>

Okay! You just convinced me to buy this and check it out. Not sure which I will use, but I like good game books. I am an idea bandit

 

[Silveras]

Well, it has been a month now, and the challenge I posted has gone unanswered. It has also been posted to the Mongoose Forum's Rules Masters board, about a week ago. The only response there, to date (Jan 23, 2004), has been that it is an interesting challenge.