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<blockquote data-quote="Zelc" data-source="post: 4030519" data-attributes="member: 40496">Then either you burn a feat to gain proficiency (Str Monk takes Improved Initiative), or you suffer a -4 penalty to the AoOs, either of which tips the battle in favor of the Str Monk.&nbsp; Let's stick to WotC for this discussion, OK?&nbsp; There's way too much 3rd party stuff out there for us to account for. Speaking of which, if there are 4 of them, is the Dex Monk using your spear every round or generating AoOs every round?&nbsp; The enemies should be surrounding it and attacking or 5' stepping to keep up, so it won't be using the spear or taking AoOs.Two problems.&nbsp; First, the Dex Monk doesn't have any ability to force an opponent to not move.&nbsp; They can't take advantage of Improved Trip because of their low strength, and they can't take advantage of Stand Still because of their low damage.&nbsp; Second, the Dex Monk deals negligible damage (7 average, then reduce with miss chance and lower attack bonus).&nbsp; If I'm playing a Fighter against a Dex Monk, I'd soak the AoO without blinking.&nbsp; Oh no, there's a 50% chance of taking 7 damage!Battlefield control means actually stopping your enemies from moving through a certain area, not just plinking them for low damage as they ignore you and kill the rest of your party.&nbsp; These are <a href="http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706" target="_blank">battlefield</a> <a href="http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=953434" target="_blank">control</a> <a href="http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=656414" target="_blank">builds</a>.&nbsp; A Dragonfire Adept with Entangling Breath and Slow Breath is a battlefield control build.&nbsp; A Wizard with walls and fogs is a battlefield control build.&nbsp; A Dex Monk may generate damage off AoOs, but he's not a battlefield control build.If you want to introduce buffs, we can try to account for buffs (if my head doesn't explode from the complexity <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> ).But then your example with a 4-on-1 like that is not an equal-CR encounter.&nbsp; Why bother optimizing for super-high CR fights you'd probably never face?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Zelc, post: 4030519, member: 40496"] Then either you burn a feat to gain proficiency (Str Monk takes Improved Initiative), or you suffer a -4 penalty to the AoOs, either of which tips the battle in favor of the Str Monk. Let's stick to WotC for this discussion, OK? There's way too much 3rd party stuff out there for us to account for. Speaking of which, if there are 4 of them, is the Dex Monk using your spear every round or generating AoOs every round? The enemies should be surrounding it and attacking or 5' stepping to keep up, so it won't be using the spear or taking AoOs. Two problems. First, the Dex Monk doesn't have any ability to force an opponent to not move. They can't take advantage of Improved Trip because of their low strength, and they can't take advantage of Stand Still because of their low damage. Second, the Dex Monk deals negligible damage (7 average, then reduce with miss chance and lower attack bonus). If I'm playing a Fighter against a Dex Monk, I'd soak the AoO without blinking. Oh no, there's a 50% chance of taking 7 damage! Battlefield control means actually stopping your enemies from moving through a certain area, not just plinking them for low damage as they ignore you and kill the rest of your party. These are [url=http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706]battlefield[/url] [url=http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=953434]control[/url] [url=http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=656414]builds[/url]. A Dragonfire Adept with Entangling Breath and Slow Breath is a battlefield control build. A Wizard with walls and fogs is a battlefield control build. A Dex Monk may generate damage off AoOs, but he's not a battlefield control build. If you want to introduce buffs, we can try to account for buffs (if my head doesn't explode from the complexity ;) ). But then your example with a 4-on-1 like that is not an equal-CR encounter. Why bother optimizing for super-high CR fights you'd probably never face? [/QUOTE]

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