Monks and AC

[doosler]

Do monks get AC bonuses from Dex and Wis? Would a level 1 monk with 18 Dex and 18 Wis have +8 AC? If that monk took Vow of Poverty, would he have +12 AC?

 

[Gloombunny]

I don't know exactly what Vow of Poverty does, but yes, both Dexterity and Wisdom add to a monk's AC. The Dexterity bonus is lost when the monk is flat-footed, and the Wisdom bonus is always in effect.

So yes, a level one monk with really high Dex and Wis can have a pretty good AC. But assuming he had to leave his Strength pretty low to manage it, he won't be very good at actually accomplishing anything.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But assuming he had to leave his Strength pretty low to manage it, he won't be very good at actually accomplishing anything.

That is simply not true.

If you go with a Dex monk (as I have) you take that into account. (Full Disclosure: the last time I did this, it was a Githzerai monk, but the principles remain the same for Monks with lesser Dex scores.)

1) You'll have the edge on initiative.

2) You emphasize your ranged attacks- Monks can use spears, javelins, crossbows, slings, daggers, clubs, shuriken and grenade like weapons.

The last Dex-monk I built had a Quiver of Ehlonna as his first magic item. For many combats, he simply became artillery. Raining down javelins and firebombs on enemy spellcasters can be quite effective.

3) You will have more AoOs if you choose Combat Reflexes. With the right weapon selection, you'll get to use all of them, too.

Of the Monk's basic weapons, only the Longspear is a reach weapon. You'll be able to threaten at 10', and anyone who gets closer faces your Unarmed Strikes.

If you have access to the DCv1, you can take Pole Fighter (selected polearm treated as a monk weapon, so you can flurry with it), Unotrhodox Flurry (selected light weapon treated as a monk weapon, so you can flurry with it), and Ring the Golden Bell (unarmed strike can be used as a ranged weapon) as well as other choice feats.

I used a polearm with my Dex monk, and dealt out nearly as much damage per round as the party's Barbarian (due to AoOs), while my Dex & Wis combo gave me the best AC in the party.

4) You won't be hit as often.

5) You'll make more of your Reflex saves.

comrade raoul and I discussed the benefits and detriments of each build vis a vis each other in a thread last year. Swapping a 14 & 16 betwee the two relevant stats, on average, the Str monk dropped his opponent about a round faster than the Dex monk, while the Dex monk survived about a round longer.

That discussion, however, was limited to pure melee- it didn't account for differences in tactics (as outlined above) and assumed that all combatants had simultaneous initiative- thus ignoring the Dex monk's initiative advantage.

See also http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198272&page=1&pp=30 for a bunch more info on Monk builds.

 

[Arkhandus]

.....But.......how often could you seriously hit with a monk like that, in melee, with that polearm? You can't even take Weapon Finesse for a polearm. My own monks have hard a hard time hitting things because I chose to focus on Dexterity and Wisdom, but only mediocre or slightly-above-average Strength. And didn't do much damage per hit.

Edit: Unless you got much better than 25 or 32 point buy equivalent stats, of course. For a Dex+Wis emphasizing monk. In order to also have good Str.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

.....But.......how often could you seriously hit with a monk like that, in melee, with that polearm?

One thing that helps to minimize this problem- Deft Opportunist (CompAdv): +4Att on AoOs. In addition, anything that boosts a Str Monk's attack will work just as well for a Dex Monk's...and AFAIK, there are more Str boosters than Dex boosters.

In addition, Monks are among the worst classes for MAD, so they don't usually have a wide distribution in attributes. You're typically only talking about a 5%-10% shift in to-hit probabilities. Given the number of strikes you get with your FoB and your AoOs (remember, a M sized monk with a reach weapon threatens 24 squares), that extra miss chance dissapears into statistical noise as you pile up the d20 rolls. Plus, with your higher AC and reach, you'll be around longer to take advantage of your FoBs and AoOs.

In addition, since you're using your Dex offensively with ranged combat, you stand a decent chance of having already damaged whatever enters your threatened area. Perhaps your Tanglefoot bag has even rooted them in place so you can poke them from 10' away and never worry about them at all.

Many opponents who closed on my polearm equipped monk never touched him.

 

[Gloombunny]

You're talking about a Str 14 Dex 16 monk. I was talking about a monk with Dex 18 and Wis 18. Unless you have spectacular dice luck or an insanely high point-buy, you're not gonna have those two 18s and still a 14 Str.

 

[Kat']

Weeeeell... sure, you can make a Finesse monk. Sure, you can even make a Ranged monk. But with low Str, you have one big, very big problem: Crappy. Damage. Output. And trust me, this is worse than getting hit a few times more at low levels. Let's face it: at middle to high levels, you're gonna get hit no matter your AC, given than To Hit progression is much, much faster than AC progression.

Want a ranged monk? Pump up Strength, take Brutal Throw. But honestly, it's a wasted feat slot. Monks profitate from being Enlarged, and thrown weapons turn back to their normal size once thrown. Meh.

Nah, Monks don't need that high Dex. Wis, yes, given that your Will save is the most important in the game, but Dex? If you got very good rolls or points to spare, yeah, better high Dex than high Cha. But you also need high Str, and most important high Con.

 

[Herzog]

I currently have a player in my group going for ninja/invisible blade.

That's dex bonus, wis bonus AND int bonus to AC....

since his stats are 'normal' (dex 18, wis 13 and int 14) this doesn't create a very high AC, UNLESS he improves those stats using magic....
Cat's grace, owls wisdom and fox's cunning suddenly 'stack' for purpose of AC!

I don't mind, since this is the most MAD character I have seen anyone build in a long time, but just thought I'd share it here.

And, before I forget: dmg is increased by sudden strike etc., but he needs a high Cha for his bluff checks (feint).....

Herzog

 

[Kat']

Well, you say it, he's awfully MAD...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Weeeeell... sure, you can make a Finesse monk. Sure, you can even make a Ranged monk. But with low Str, you have one big, very big problem: Crappy. Damage. Output.

and

You're talking about a Str 14 Dex 16 monk. I was talking about a monk with Dex 18 and Wis 18. Unless you have spectacular dice luck or an insanely high point-buy, you're not gonna have those two 18s and still a 14 Str.

Lets assume the high Dex/Wis build monk has ZERO STr bonus (mine had a Str of 12).

You're going to hit in ranged combat a LOT more. As a pure monk, one of your best ranged weapons- the Crossbow- benefits not at all from Str. Neitherr do grenade like weapons.

With Combat Reflexes, you'll also have many more opportunities to roll attacks. Iterative attacks make a difference- and unlike most iterative attacks, AoOs are made at your normal attack bonus.

Outside of the Core (esp. in the DCv1), there are weapons monks can use that will alleviate their "Crappy. Damage. Output." My monk was using a Bisento from Oriental Adventures/Rokugan- 1d12 x3S, and dished out almost as much per round as the party's Barbarian. When he Raged and I Flurried, I kept up with him. My Reach weapon triggered enough AoOs that the Barbarian had a Great Cleave Orgy. Even within the Core, the Spear does 1d8x2P with Reach- not significantly worse than the longsword. Using a Greatspear from CompWar gets you 2d6x3P Reach 10' RI 10'- get one of those enchanted as a Returning weapon and go to town.

When you build a Dex monk, you have to resist the temptation to think of combat exclusively as "close with your targets and start whaling away." Monks aren't tanks anyway.

Instead, you damage your opponents before they close, possibly preventing them from even doing so. If they do close, you've already gotten a round or so of free damage...and if you're using a reach weapon, they still have to pass through those threatened squares to get into the threatened range of your IUC blows. The damage from one average successful AoO roughly balances out with the loss of bonus damage from higher Str, and if you've gotten a successful ranged attack in before that, you're actually ahead of the game.