I've done some heavy comparisons (and played both): a dex-based build is typically much better than a str-based one. With things like permanent magic fang +5 (9k gp), monk's belt, improved natural attack, etc., a finesse monk can do more damage than he really needs to (4d8+5 per flurry hit, without any strength). Meanwhile, the high-dex provides synergy with many other monk abilities (and still improves the monk's to-hit roll). Allowing TWF'ing with the flurry makes the dex-based monk even more preferable.Kat' said:
-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Monks and AC
- Thread starter doosler
- Start date
For that matter, I recently played a 9th lvl Dex-based Ftr/Monk/Kensai using a Greatspear at EN World's Dallas Gameday at GenEx games in Euless, TX.
With her potions of Enlarge, she did at least as much damage as the single classed Knight. And in the final battle, her Reach enabled her to land several nasty blows on the 2 dragons while they stayed away from the Knight. She took little damage in return- the dragons were driven off before she took 50% of her HP.
(Ask bento and der_kluge if you doubt me.)
With her potions of Enlarge, she did at least as much damage as the single classed Knight. And in the final battle, her Reach enabled her to land several nasty blows on the 2 dragons while they stayed away from the Knight. She took little damage in return- the dragons were driven off before she took 50% of her HP.
(Ask bento and der_kluge if you doubt me.)
Arkhandus
First Post
Bisento? No such weapon in Rokugan OR Oriental Adventures. None of the weapons in OA even goes above a d10. Katana/bastard sword at d10/19-20/x2, or naginata at d10/20/x3. And neither are Monk special weapons for flurry of blows or other purposes. Even the three-section staff is just 1d8/20/x3, the best Monk special weapon around, though you got to spend a feat for proficiency in the exotic weapon. And note that EWP requires a +1 BAB first, so that means 3rd-level at the earliest for a Monk.
I think your DM just gave you a custom weapon to make you not suck at damage output. And without that non-core feat for a bonus on AoOs, you wouldn't be hitting much either in melee. Weapon Finesse doesn't apply to polearms, at least not without some possible crazy combo of non-core feats that I don't know about. Crossbows don't do much damage, even if throwing in Crossbow Sniper. It's a several-feat investment just to get a crossbow to fire as rapidly as a composite longbow and for similar, but still inferior, damage. And many of these feats require some BAB, which a Monk doesn't have at 1st-level.
Monks just suck for damage and accuracy without high Strength. That's my experience, cuz I've played several monks that focused on Wisdom and Dexterity to varying degrees, with average or just above average Strength.
Also: if you're relying on a caster buffing you up a ton, then you're still less effective than a real warrior-type getting the same kind of buffs (GMW in place of GMF, basically).
I think your DM just gave you a custom weapon to make you not suck at damage output. And without that non-core feat for a bonus on AoOs, you wouldn't be hitting much either in melee. Weapon Finesse doesn't apply to polearms, at least not without some possible crazy combo of non-core feats that I don't know about. Crossbows don't do much damage, even if throwing in Crossbow Sniper. It's a several-feat investment just to get a crossbow to fire as rapidly as a composite longbow and for similar, but still inferior, damage. And many of these feats require some BAB, which a Monk doesn't have at 1st-level.
Monks just suck for damage and accuracy without high Strength. That's my experience, cuz I've played several monks that focused on Wisdom and Dexterity to varying degrees, with average or just above average Strength.
Also: if you're relying on a caster buffing you up a ton, then you're still less effective than a real warrior-type getting the same kind of buffs (GMW in place of GMF, basically).
My last 2 monks were Dex monks. The first almost never took damage (Githzerai with outrageous Dex mods and a Wis mod). The second was Human and proved the equal of a straight Knight.
Its from the AEG's Rokugan setting's Complete Exotic Arms Guide- their equivalent to WotC's Arms & Equipment Guide, found here:
http://www.trollandtoad.com/p157832.html
And had I wished, I could have gone with the Greatspear anyway- which I used in the latter monk.
No caster buffs- just items & class features. Like I said, there are many more Str boosters than Dex boosters.
Even without the Pole Fighter feat from DCv1 allowing my monks to flurry, the AoOs from using a Reach Weapon definitely piled up a lot of damage, meaning that when opponents closed within the threatened area of the polearm, my FoB was dealing damage to an already wounded foe.
You're still thinking that a Dex monk is supposed to close like a Str monk. He's not.
This isn't a Tank build. This build is designed to soften them up from range then skirmish. On top of everything else, he's probably going to have initiative.
Hit early, hit often from range. Coupled with using AoOs tactically with Reach, you might not ever let a foe close in a given combat. You control the battlespace, rather than react to it.
While the Str monk is hitting harder while close in, he's also getting hit harder.
The Dex monk, with superior AC, is getting hit less often. With superior Initiative, he gets to hit before the Str monk. With more AoOs, he's getting more attacks at his full BAB- this is more pronounced with a (Spear or better) reach weapon.
Its from the AEG's Rokugan setting's Complete Exotic Arms Guide- their equivalent to WotC's Arms & Equipment Guide, found here:
http://www.trollandtoad.com/p157832.html
And had I wished, I could have gone with the Greatspear anyway- which I used in the latter monk.
No caster buffs- just items & class features. Like I said, there are many more Str boosters than Dex boosters.
Even without the Pole Fighter feat from DCv1 allowing my monks to flurry, the AoOs from using a Reach Weapon definitely piled up a lot of damage, meaning that when opponents closed within the threatened area of the polearm, my FoB was dealing damage to an already wounded foe.
You're still thinking that a Dex monk is supposed to close like a Str monk. He's not.
This isn't a Tank build. This build is designed to soften them up from range then skirmish. On top of everything else, he's probably going to have initiative.
Hit early, hit often from range. Coupled with using AoOs tactically with Reach, you might not ever let a foe close in a given combat. You control the battlespace, rather than react to it.
While the Str monk is hitting harder while close in, he's also getting hit harder.
The Dex monk, with superior AC, is getting hit less often. With superior Initiative, he gets to hit before the Str monk. With more AoOs, he's getting more attacks at his full BAB- this is more pronounced with a (Spear or better) reach weapon.
Last edited:
AnonymousOne
First Post
Intuitive Strike - BoED
Use your Wis in place of your STR for melee attacks. The feat doesn't say that the WIS applies to damage though.
EDIT:
Okay so looking at the other thread, can a Monk benefit from BOTH Superior Unarmed Strike and the Monk's Belt? Would they stack? If not by RAW, would you house rule it that they did?
Use your Wis in place of your STR for melee attacks. The feat doesn't say that the WIS applies to damage though.
EDIT:
Okay so looking at the other thread, can a Monk benefit from BOTH Superior Unarmed Strike and the Monk's Belt? Would they stack? If not by RAW, would you house rule it that they did?
Last edited:
Where is Superior Unarmed Strike again?
***
Addendum to "Crappy. Damage. Output." counterargument regarding my Githzerai Monk vs the party's Barbarian. I neglected to point out that Githzerai also have a +2LA, meaning that not only was my monk giving up a Feat and Str to the Barbarian, but at least 2BAB as well.
And he still nearly matched his damage output round by round.
***
Addendum to "Crappy. Damage. Output." counterargument regarding my Githzerai Monk vs the party's Barbarian. I neglected to point out that Githzerai also have a +2LA, meaning that not only was my monk giving up a Feat and Str to the Barbarian, but at least 2BAB as well.
And he still nearly matched his damage output round by round.
Is it possible to combine weapon finesse with flurry of blows in order to get a Dex bonus to multiple attacks with light weapons? If so, it seems like a monk with high Dex/Wis would not only have a very high AC, but he would also strike quite often (albeit, not for quite as much damage as a fighter using a heavy and a light weapon and getting a Str bonus to damage).
But a monk with 18 Dex and 18 Wis who took a Vow of Poverty would start off with an AC of 22. By 3rd level he could take Weapon Finesse and have 2 attacks per round at +4 each. That seems pretty effective.
By contrast, a monk with 18 Str and 18 Wis with Vow of Poverty would start off with an AC of 18. But he would start off with 2 attacks per round at +2 each, plus he would do an extra 4 points of damage with each blow.
Both seem like good choices, assuming you can roll high enough for your ability scores.
But a monk with 18 Dex and 18 Wis who took a Vow of Poverty would start off with an AC of 22. By 3rd level he could take Weapon Finesse and have 2 attacks per round at +4 each. That seems pretty effective.
By contrast, a monk with 18 Str and 18 Wis with Vow of Poverty would start off with an AC of 18. But he would start off with 2 attacks per round at +2 each, plus he would do an extra 4 points of damage with each blow.
Both seem like good choices, assuming you can roll high enough for your ability scores.
AnonymousOne
First Post
Bo9SDannyalcatraz said:
A monk's Unarmed strike qualifies for Weapon finesse, so it should work.
I don't have Bo9S in front of me, but if Superior Unarmed Strike is a Feat or a Combat stance, it should stack with the Monk's belt (assuming the bonuses are not of the same named type).
I don't have Bo9S in front of me, but if Superior Unarmed Strike is a Feat or a Combat stance, it should stack with the Monk's belt (assuming the bonuses are not of the same named type).
eamon
Explorer
I don't see how you can be dealing similar amounts of damage with the Dex-based monk. I'm curious! A player in my campaign is currently a 5th level fighter/4th warforged juggernaught, and has nice stats (however, a warforged does not have +2 str, and the juggernaught only has 3/4bab, so this is by no means a maximal damage build; he clearly chose if for the flavor and optimized around it). So this real-life, not super-maximized build currently has 22 str (he rolled high on str and has a strength boosting item and all level-ups in strength), +8 bab, and weapon focus/specialization/PHB2 mastery, and of course, power attack.
He attacks +19/+14 dealing 3d6+15 damage, without special circumstances, using a +2 weapon. It's large (since he has the strongarm bracers), hence the 3d6. +6 str bonus means +9 to damage, +2 from wp. spc., +2 from wp. mastery, +2 from the weapon. His to hit is +19, since that's +8bab + 6 str, +1wp.focus, +2 wp. mastery, +2 weapon. If his opponent has a low AC, his power attack is absolutely devastating. All this is fairly normal stuff, with the exception of the strongarm bracers allowing him to wield a larger weapon.
He has a bunch of bonuses while charging, so potentially his damage output is much much higher, but for the basics, that's enough. And this guy isn't even maximized, having a bunch of flavorful things like a weapon of vanishing, charge related stuff, bull rush related stuff, DR 2/adamantine (at the cost of feats) and the warforged juggernaught class - a plain fighter/barbarian would have +1 bab and up to 6 strength more (half-orc+rage) - not to mention that he could have chosen to focus his feats a little more. He gets up to another +3 to hit and 1d8+4 to damage while charging.
How the heck is a dex-based monk doing anywhere near 25.5 damage at +19 bab on a hit? Let alone how he's competing once power attack and the charge effects are factored in...
A monk at 9th level could have a monk's belt, superior unarmed strike, improved natural attack, and deal 3d8 damage per hit. If he's nice to the druid, he gets greater magic fang for free - 3d8+2. He's got a +6 attack bonus, weapon focus (presumably), gr. magic fang, 26 dex (18+2racial+2levelup+4item) - +17 (3d8+2) i.e. dealing 15.5 damage at +17 instead of +19 attack bonus. And before you say "but a monk has other nice bonuses" don't forget this other warforged isn't a pure fighter either, and has nice immunities to sleep, doesn't need to breathe, is immune to all mind-affecting effects, and is immune to all necromancy and death effects - and maybe more, I don't remember - a true fighter would not have these, and deal significantly more damage, at significantly higher attack bonus.
The because of power attack, the damage issue because very difficult to close.
Since you only get a full-attack if you hardly move, that first attack is the most important. Especially to a monk, who's so good at moving.
So, I'm honestly curious how a dex-based monk can compare to a more normal fighter type, especially a barbarian, in terms of damage - I just don't see how!
He attacks +19/+14 dealing 3d6+15 damage, without special circumstances, using a +2 weapon. It's large (since he has the strongarm bracers), hence the 3d6. +6 str bonus means +9 to damage, +2 from wp. spc., +2 from wp. mastery, +2 from the weapon. His to hit is +19, since that's +8bab + 6 str, +1wp.focus, +2 wp. mastery, +2 weapon. If his opponent has a low AC, his power attack is absolutely devastating. All this is fairly normal stuff, with the exception of the strongarm bracers allowing him to wield a larger weapon.
He has a bunch of bonuses while charging, so potentially his damage output is much much higher, but for the basics, that's enough. And this guy isn't even maximized, having a bunch of flavorful things like a weapon of vanishing, charge related stuff, bull rush related stuff, DR 2/adamantine (at the cost of feats) and the warforged juggernaught class - a plain fighter/barbarian would have +1 bab and up to 6 strength more (half-orc+rage) - not to mention that he could have chosen to focus his feats a little more. He gets up to another +3 to hit and 1d8+4 to damage while charging.
How the heck is a dex-based monk doing anywhere near 25.5 damage at +19 bab on a hit? Let alone how he's competing once power attack and the charge effects are factored in...
A monk at 9th level could have a monk's belt, superior unarmed strike, improved natural attack, and deal 3d8 damage per hit. If he's nice to the druid, he gets greater magic fang for free - 3d8+2. He's got a +6 attack bonus, weapon focus (presumably), gr. magic fang, 26 dex (18+2racial+2levelup+4item) - +17 (3d8+2) i.e. dealing 15.5 damage at +17 instead of +19 attack bonus. And before you say "but a monk has other nice bonuses" don't forget this other warforged isn't a pure fighter either, and has nice immunities to sleep, doesn't need to breathe, is immune to all mind-affecting effects, and is immune to all necromancy and death effects - and maybe more, I don't remember - a true fighter would not have these, and deal significantly more damage, at significantly higher attack bonus.
The because of power attack, the damage issue because very difficult to close.
Since you only get a full-attack if you hardly move, that first attack is the most important. Especially to a monk, who's so good at moving.
So, I'm honestly curious how a dex-based monk can compare to a more normal fighter type, especially a barbarian, in terms of damage - I just don't see how!
Similar Threads
D&D General
6 Core Classes: You are in charge
