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<blockquote data-quote="Zelc" data-source="post: 4034849" data-attributes="member: 40496">@mvincent: I'll have to crunch the numbers later, but I suspect those are not enough to make TWF an optimal option.&nbsp; I know that for fighters, they need more than just their weapon damage, strength damage, and enhancement bonuses.&nbsp; Monks should have it worse due to their lower attack bonus, as the -2 attack penalty for TWF is worse when your chance to hit is low than when it's high.&nbsp; If you used to hit on a 2 or higher, that reduces it to hitting on a 4, which is 89% of your original hit rate.&nbsp; If you used to hit on an 18 or higher, that reduces it to hitting only on a 20, which is 33% of your original hit rate.Well, perhaps if you were a Str Monk, you could have focused more damage on one target at a time and thus killed stuff faster and taken less damage.&nbsp; The value of an AoO is worth only what you can do with it, and a Dex Monk just can't do much with it.&nbsp; Maybe your friends wouldn't have looked as cool with Great Cleave, but IMO that's a lame reason to say a build's more optimal <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />.The problem isn't flurry, it's the non-proficiency penalty of -4 attack.&nbsp; It's either that, or give up reach.&nbsp; And perhaps your keeping up with the Barbarian is due to the way you read the AoO rules <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> (or perhaps I'm totally off-base here).The problem is an enemy is equally good at ganking the Wizard at 1 HP as he is at full HP.&nbsp; If there's three guys after the Wizard and you get one of them down to 50% HP, then that's usually FAR better than if you just hurt them all a bit to 75% HP (the exception is if your entire party has a ton of good damaging AOE effects that won't toast your Wizard as well).&nbsp; Plus, the Strength Monk might actually do something like trip or grapple someone.&nbsp; It's not a great strategy for Monks, but they have that option.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Zelc, post: 4034849, member: 40496"] @mvincent: I'll have to crunch the numbers later, but I suspect those are not enough to make TWF an optimal option. I know that for fighters, they need more than just their weapon damage, strength damage, and enhancement bonuses. Monks should have it worse due to their lower attack bonus, as the -2 attack penalty for TWF is worse when your chance to hit is low than when it's high. If you used to hit on a 2 or higher, that reduces it to hitting on a 4, which is 89% of your original hit rate. If you used to hit on an 18 or higher, that reduces it to hitting only on a 20, which is 33% of your original hit rate. Well, perhaps if you were a Str Monk, you could have focused more damage on one target at a time and thus killed stuff faster and taken less damage. The value of an AoO is worth only what you can do with it, and a Dex Monk just can't do much with it. Maybe your friends wouldn't have looked as cool with Great Cleave, but IMO that's a lame reason to say a build's more optimal ;). The problem isn't flurry, it's the non-proficiency penalty of -4 attack. It's either that, or give up reach. And perhaps your keeping up with the Barbarian is due to the way you read the AoO rules ;) (or perhaps I'm totally off-base here). The problem is an enemy is equally good at ganking the Wizard at 1 HP as he is at full HP. If there's three guys after the Wizard and you get one of them down to 50% HP, then that's usually FAR better than if you just hurt them all a bit to 75% HP (the exception is if your entire party has a ton of good damaging AOE effects that won't toast your Wizard as well). Plus, the Strength Monk might actually do something like trip or grapple someone. It's not a great strategy for Monks, but they have that option. [/QUOTE]

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