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Message: <blockquote data-quote="eamon" data-source="post: 4038389" data-attributes="member: 51942">Just to point out, I <a href="http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4022538&postcount=27" target="_blank">did</a> do some number crunching, and the monk doesn't look good.  If you want a different comparison (the linked post was an unarmed strike optimized dex monk of 9th level vs. a suboptimal fighter (warforged juggernaught) - and the monk does less damage), post the details.  I'm also curious about dannyalcatraz's monk builds.The conclusion, anyhow, that dex based monk's can compete on damage with strength based monks isn't backed by numbers yet - and, when using a weapon other than the unarmed strike - I don't believe it's possible.  A dex-based monk using unarmed strike can get close to a str-based monk, since a lot of damage is base damage, and since a str-monk only gains 1 extra damage per str bonus and 1 extra damage per point of BAB invested in power attack, unlike the two handed weapon wielding fighter.  Regardless, they'll never even get close to a simple fighter/barbarian, let alone some optimized Bo9S build.I also second the notion that combat reflexes isn't to the dex-based monk's advantage.  You rarely get more than one AoO per round, and very rarely get more than 3, which a 14 dex monk already could take with combat reflexes.  Further, a strength-based monk will be hitting dealing more damage with the AoO's he does hit - so that means that in the majority of cases, when both versions of the monk can hit equally often, the str monk gets more benefit from combat reflexes than the dex based monk - no doubt about it.Two-Weapon Fighting is controversial in the sense that not everyone agree's it can be applied to the monk's unarmed strike.  In any case (and I'd allow it), it a very suboptimal way to deal more damage, since it imposes a hefty -2 penalty on all your other attacks.  Especially from 11th level onward, when a monk has greater flurry, the extra attack at full bab just doesn't compare to the -2 taken on all the other attacks.  Worse yet, it penalizes all attacks - so guess what?  All those great AoO's which you hope to get are less likely to hit.If you're going to analyze a build, you realistically have to consider at least the cases of one opponent, of few opponents, and of many opponents.  You'll need to consider that an AC that's beyond a certain threshold has decreasing returns, since people will simply try to hit your allies and not you.Comparing monks when they're swarmed with opponents, and assuming all opponents try to hit the monk isn't a representative test - and even in that heavily biased test, according to dannyalcatraz (who argues that dex-based AoO monks are worth a try), the monk's perform almost equally - and from the incomplete test description, I think the str based monk could easily have done better (by, for instance, not using a greatspear).</blockquote>

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