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Message: <blockquote data-quote="eamon" data-source="post: 4044854" data-attributes="member: 51942">The comparison I linked to was one of a rather heavily damage optimized dex monk and a warforgetd juggernaught, which has no special damage enhancing abilities, and does not have full bab, and does significantly less damage than a fighter/barbarian, let alone a ToB build.Your conclusion is exactly what I'm getting at: a monk is not as good as a fighter-type at fighting, by a significant margin.  Like previously said, a monk can still be fun to play, but in combat, other characters will help the party more.Fighting vs. two creatures means great cleave gives you at most one extra hit in the entire battle - an extra hit that Cleave would have granted as well.  Sure, fighters can tear apart low-AC critters, but they don't need (nor benefit heavily from) Great Cleave.  Cleave isn't bad, but it's not great either, and Great Cleave is really situational - but we're getting off topic.  As to the wizard's AoE spells, similarly, opinions differ on whether it's optimal, and they're certainly not bad, but it's also off topic (and not really relevant, I think).You can also take a monk's belt and superior unarmed strike (ToB) and boost your damage to 3d8.  That's 2d6 vs. 3d8, and when enlarged, 3d6 vs. 4d8.  A monk isn't normally proficient with a greatspear.  If you want a reach weapon, I'd recommend taking a guisarme and using improved trip.  The nonproficiency penalty is hardly relevant for the touch attack, and it meshes well with improved trip:  but again, this works better with the strength based monk.Which inevitably leads to the question what a monk can do well.  How is monk better than a tumbling rogue, say?  If it's not the damage you want him for, there's precious little else left.  It's playable, but AoO's won't make the difference, and you'd be better off playing to your strengths, rather than getting more hits with a strike that hardly deals damage.</blockquote>

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