Monks and hitting people

[Lonely Tylenol]

So while the battle rages in the thread about whether monks qualify for Improved Natural Weapon, a point comes up. It's generally taken for granted that monks are weak. I've played one a few times, and I tend to agree that they're not so good at the whole "survival" thing overall. They work best as a specialized support character, a mage-killer, or perhaps as part of odd multiclasses. But as a member of a 4-member party, they're a bit lacking. They can't make up for a full-BAB character, don't have the skills to make up for a rogue, and have no spellcasting. They get a special ability at every level, but it still somehow seems weak.

What can be done?

This made me remember DrSpunj's classless system, which I downloaded a while back. In this system, DrSpunj has broken down the classes into abilities which are assigned points, and then rebuilt using this point system. He provides "almost-core" versions of the core classes, as well as "improved core" versions which are designed so that all the classes come out with the same number of points at each level. The system can also be used to custom-build a character without using classes, but the balanced-point builds are instructive in this situation.

What does his rebalanced monk get? No weapon proficiencies, fast movement at level 1, and a full BAB.

I like this. The monk is an unarmed fighter, and the weapon proficiencies seemed to be tacked on to suit a pseudo-oriental ideal. Where the monk buys his nunchaku from in a pseudo-medieval world is anyone's guess. Monks also benefit very little from having magic weapons, and so spending money on these is a bit of waste of time. But full BAB...that's pretty nice. It puts him in a position to hit more often and therefore to be a more useful party member. Being highly defensive, but not having access to magic weapons or armour, he can fight in the front lines, but is unlikely to have the versatility or punching power of a fighter or barbarian, especially since he has little ranged capability, and his attacks have a fixed damage die that increases with level, and cannot be given enhancements like shock, keen, or vorpal.

What do other people think about giving full BAB to the monk, in exchange for his weapon proficiencies? Will it make him overpowered? Could he possibly overshadow the other primary fighting classes? Will it finally give him a reason to wade in to combat? Or will it turn him into a mega-munchkin class?

Also, has anyone else checked out DrSpunj's system? What do you think of it in general?

 

[dcollins]

Sounds like House Rules material.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I agree, off to house rules we go!

FWIW I'm playing a monk at the moment and I don't feel that he has been ineffective in any way - he is one of a party that started with a strong fighter with fullblade, a strong paladin with fullblade (see a picture forming?), a strong half-orc barbarian, a cleric and a strong ranger/archer. My monk held his own in melee alongside any of them (careful attribute and feat choices helped). So far he has outlasted the cleric, the paladin and the barbarian who have all been replaced.

At 1st level, with improved grapple, he was a better grappler than any of the fighter types. It is only at higher levels that the reduced BAB starts to really hurt.

Also FWIW though... 3.5e introduced a change to the ranger which showed a d8 HD character with full BAB. It might not be too bad to allow a monk to also be a d8 character with full BAB just as-is. After all, unlike the cleric/druid/rogue/wizard/sorcerer they are all about the melee combat. It probably makes a lot of sense for them thematically.

Cheers

 

[Evilhalfling]

Well that really makes me want to make a Ftr 1 / Mnk X
you get loose 8 skill points, but get a full complement of weapons.

I do like the idea of dropping the speed to a simple fast movement, where did the idea that all martial artists get super speed come from anyway? and the increase to full BAB would make them a lot more effective, and fit my concept of a martial artist better.

I would also want simple weapons as a possible monk bonus feat - prolly 2nd level.
going without missle weapons really limits options, esp if you are removing the 60 move they normally reach by 9th level.

The concept might be broken for some high level games, I honestly cant tell - but you might want to lessen the improved flurry of blows tree - or at 11th level you would be attacking +11/+11/+11/+5/+1 (d10) It might be the most fair just to discard the whole tree after the first stage.

unfortunatly my campaign is to wedded to the current monk, but it looks intresting none the less.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I play a human monk who used his human bonus feat to take martial weapon(glaive). Gives him a nice high damage reach attack, and when someone closes within reach he can just fight with kicks, knees and headbutts without reliquishing the glaive. I could have gone with guisarme for the tripping, but I couldn't resist the 1d10 damage with x3 crit

 

[DanMcS]

Monks aren't underpowered, they just need to be played a bit smart. They have the best battlefield mobility and saves in the game.

Pick up improved trip at monk 6 and use a tripping reach weapon, and you're in amazing shape. You don't even need to be proficient with the reach weapon; you're just using it to get them prone so you can take that 5' step on your turn and wallop them. The bonus for attacking a prone character, and the AoO you'll get when he stands up, more than makes up for your lower BAB.

 

[isoChron]

I'm playing a monk with a Glaive, too. He calls it Naginata, but uses the glaive stats. Improved disarm with this weapon rocks. Charging characters often lose their weapon during their charge because of the 10ft. reach and combat reflexes.
Overall the monk is good as a suppporter but he hits the ground fast. Few HP and very bad AC (level8, DEX17, Bracers +1). Nearly every fight my monk is knocked down to dying ... next feat is prone attack. At least I can stand up after healing or attack from prone position.

For the question: A 3/4 BAB hurts but the speed makes the monk special. I don't think I would switch speed for BAB if I had the choice. The monk weapon proficiencies ... Bah ! Wherefore? These weapons .... are really bad. Better use your fists or a martial weapon.
A potion of silversheen for the fist and a cold iron martial weapon. Good enough for most fights.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm playing a monk with a Glaive, too. He calls it Naginata, but uses the glaive stats. Improved disarm with this weapon rocks. Charging characters often lose their weapon during their charge because of the 10ft. reach and combat reflexes.
Overall the monk is good as a suppporter but he hits the ground fast. Few HP and very bad AC (level8, DEX17, Bracers +1). Nearly every fight my monk is knocked down to dying ... next feat is prone attack. At least I can stand up after healing or attack from prone position.

So far my monk is normally one of the last down - his PsyWar levels help (Inertial armour baby!) at level 7 he has the joint highest AC (10 +4 wis, +2 dex, +1 ring; normally +4 inertial armour when the fighting starts) alongside the fighter (full plate and magic shield, AC21 IIRC) and the ranger/archer (AC 10 +5 dex, +5 magic studded leather(?)). Even with a +1 Con bonus he has rolled really well on his d8's and has about 54hp at 7th level.

Another nice tactic with glaive is ready an action to attack when they approach and if you are lucky you smack them when they get within range and then smack them again with an AoO as they close. Also if there is plenty of space when you are fighting you can take a standard action to make a single attack and then tumble as a move action away from them (avoiding AoO) and then when they advance to combat you get the reach AoO again. Against dumb foes this could let you get in two attacks for every one they take...

Cheers

 

[robberbaron]

As GM for Plane Sailing's Monk I don't think the class needs changing. Monks can rock as much as any other class.

DanMcS hits the problem on the head. Monks need to be played differently to fighters, perhaps with a little more finesse and forethought.
Than again, every class could benefit from smart playing.

I do agree, however, that the Monk's speed and ability to lessen falling damage is somewhat anachronistic - there is no explaination as to why they can do this, they are just like characters from Crouching Tiger. I suspect that WotC didn't want to expend the effort necessary to straighten the class out and just imported the ideas from AD&D1.

 

[Fredrik Svanberg]

We removed the silly oriental weapons, gave monks simple weapons proficiency and allowed them to use simple weapons as monk weapons for all purposes. We never looked back.