Monks, Grapples, and Shoves

[OB1]

Another thing I forgot to mention on the original post but that was another thing, he was using those as dexterity checks because of the monk's martial arts feature. The dm said it was ok, but again I dont think that is how that is supposed to work.

Curious as to your goal in asking the DM to revise his rulings in this. Clearly it’s a benefit to the PC and the party. Are you concerned that he DM will be unable to challenge the group due to their ruling on this?

Seems like a fun ruling that goes with the spirit of a martial arts master. And should it make combat encounters to easy the DM can always add more monsters.

 

[Allistar1801]

No, it makes sense and it hasn't broken the game yet, but this character could make it tricky for our dm to challenge him in combat and not kill the rest of the party. I just wanted to know if the stuff he was doing was legal because after reading through the monk abilities some things just didn't add up.

 

[abirdcall]

Curious as to your goal in asking the DM to revise his rulings in this. Clearly it’s a benefit to the PC and the party. Are you concerned that he DM will be unable to challenge the group due to their ruling on this?

Seems like a fun ruling that goes with the spirit of a martial arts master. And should it make combat encounters to easy the DM can always add more monsters.

I disagree with this.

It's not a ruling, it's a houserule.

At some point the rules should be followed. At the very least have the discussion and decide if the table wants to houserule it.

Having an extra couple spell slots per day for a caster won't prevent the game from being challenging either. That would be a less disruptive houserule for a character as at least they are just doing more of what they can already do. Shoving and Grappling is a thing that extra attack strength characters get. Let them have their things.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

No, it makes sense and it hasn't broken the game yet, but this character could make it tricky for our dm to challenge him in combat and not kill the rest of the party. I just wanted to know if the stuff he was doing was legal because after reading through the monk abilities some things just didn't add up.

The way I see it, this is an attack strategy that works best against single enemies (large and smaller) when the monks teammates can also benefit from that enemy being prone and unable to get away. But it loses its luster when they are many enemies (since the monk can at most grapple two enemies, but then it is questionable as to how well he can use his martial arts to attack the or others) or when those enemies are too large or incapable of being grappled or knocked prone (ghosts, oozes, ect) or can deal damage at range.

As a player in the group, I wouldn't be so concerned with the ruling (since it benefits the group and seems to add fun). However, if the ruling causes impediment to having fun, or if it allows the monk to too greatly outshine the other players, then its worth having a discussion with the entire group. But since combat is only one aspect of D&D (the others being exploration and social), and since there are clear counters to the strategy that wouldn't necessarily increase lethality for all other players, this alone seems like it shouldn't impact fun or sharing the spotlight too greatly. Of course, I'm not at your table, so I could be wrong.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don’t think the Monk will give the GM much trouble just bc they can grapple a bit better. These aren’t high powered abilities, tbh. Good, but hardly overpowered.

 

[clearstream]

No, it makes sense and it hasn't broken the game yet, but this character could make it tricky for our dm to challenge him in combat and not kill the rest of the party. I just wanted to know if the stuff he was doing was legal because after reading through the monk abilities some things just didn't add up.

Your questions make sense to me. For instance, Dexterity already does a lot in 5e (initiative, AC, ranged and finesse attack and damage, stealth) so channeling grapple and shove through it is questionable. The ability your Monk wants (to grapple with a bonus action) exists in concrete form in Tavern Brawler, which broadens from with an Attack action to as a follow-up to a (non-bonus action) unarmed strike or improvised weapon attack.

And it's important to keep in mind that "fun" in a game is created by constraints: it's the space created by the things you can't do that establishes the fun in the things you can do. (Imagine being able to cast all spells, use all class features and skills, without fail or constraint... fun?) Stronger characters can be balanced by more monsters, but more monsters can reduce fun by making fights take longer. The game's designers were experts with access to playtesting resources far beyond what any one group has at its disposal. There is often solid reasoning behind the choices they make, that is not obvious until more of the possible gameplay is explored.

 

[Stalker0]

I don’t think the Monk will give the GM much trouble just bc they can grapple a bit better. These aren’t high powered abilities, tbh. Good, but hardly overpowered.

Yeah...its not like the monk is considered the combat king or anything...I don't think anyone will have an issue.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah...its not like the monk is considered the combat king or anything...I don't think anyone will have an issue.

Monk is unfairly maligned in terms of combat prowess, because people put too much stock in nova and not enough in reliable DPR, and reliable defensive abilities, and being able to actually get to enemies, and people tend to leave out the monk subclasses when considering it's strength.

But yes, this isn't going to make them more powerful than other classes.

 

[MarkB]

Monk is unfairly maligned in terms of combat prowess, because people put too much stock in nova and not enough in reliable DPR, and reliable defensive abilities, and being able to actually get to enemies, and people tend to leave out the monk subclasses when considering it's strength.

But yes, this isn't going to make them more powerful than other classes.

Yeah, it's just making the class marginally more flexible. Monks can already hinder opponents in similar fashion to the effects of Shove and Grapple, especially Open Hand monks. Making them more proficient with Grapple and Shove allows them to do so without a cost in Ki points, but it does so at the expense of them not dealing damage along with those effects.

 

[Stalker0]

Monk is unfairly maligned in terms of combat prowess, because people put too much stock in nova and not enough in reliable DPR, and reliable defensive abilities, and being able to actually get to enemies, and people tend to leave out the monk subclasses when considering it's strength.

But yes, this isn't going to make them more powerful than other classes.

For me their offense have never been the problem, its their defense. Unless they have very good stats in dex and wisdom their AC is terrible compared to other martial. And unlike rogues and barbs they don't have ways to halve damage. They have their extra dodge but that burns ki very quickly.

I find they suck down healing much more quickly than other martial classes, and unless they are pouring ki into defense they don't have the longevity.