I am just trying to get peoples impressions on monks having played them back in 1st edi have just recently started playing 3.5 i havent made up my mind on monks yet, at th elower levels they seem ok but how do they stack up past 10th level and into epic . im not one to multiclass into certain classes just to recieve a perk that reeks a little to much of powergaming but thats another story i guess. So what are the useful feats for monks and do they compare to the other "warrior classes" or are they once again under powered and more of a novelty class.
Monks, Groovy or not so groovy?
- Thread starter jazzer
- Start date
Many people like them, many people think they are not so hot. My impression is they are ok at lower levels. At higher levels they are sorta crappy, as they can't do anything as well as any other class, except perhaps avoid damage. IF you can turn this to your advantage, then you'll probably enjoy playing a monk.
shock the monkey
First Post
There are countless opinions on the usefulness of monks, but let me just say that you won't be disappointed by what they can do.
True, monks are a bit weak in the beginning, but you can offset their AC with potions of mage armor and limiting yourself to a single attack per round. I tend to couple that with a charge and that usually gets good results.
Here are some feats to consider...
improved initiative (being the first to act means everyone loses their dex bonus, always a plus)
weapon focus - unarmed (always pays off, this one)
weapon finesse - unarmed (for the high-dex/moderate-strength monk)
power critical and/or improved critical (some would disagree, but you'd be surprised how often you can confirm with the former)
freeze the lifeblood (this one you won't see til later, but when used against a spellcaster, it could mean the ballgame)
As for monk feats, I prefer stunning fist over improved grapple (which is nice if you going the strength route, but it ultimately lowers your AC and makes you vulnerable in the process), combat relflexes over snatch arrows (loads of AoO), and improved trip over improved disarm (one gives you an extra attack, the other doesn't). Basically, all grant additional attacks that you normally wouldn't have with the other flavored feats.
IMO, good races for monks would be human, dwarf, or half-orc. Some like elves for the high dex., but the low con. really hurts in the long run. Also, anything large, like a half-minotaur or a half-ogre, for example, would greatly increase your total number of AoO and overall presence on the battle-grid.
Lastly, monks need not be thought of as weak fighters because they're really more than fighters. They move faster, have a higher number of attacks, and better saves overall. They get spell resistance at higher levels and all kinds of immunities that a fighter would never see. They also have access to magic that could save you in a tight squeeze like dimension door, for example.
If you're in a group that tends toward the good, check out Vow of Poverty from Book of Exalted Deeds. When coupled with a monk (which it was intended for), it makes a ridiculously powerful combination; however, just make sure the cleric's got your back.
Have fun.
True, monks are a bit weak in the beginning, but you can offset their AC with potions of mage armor and limiting yourself to a single attack per round. I tend to couple that with a charge and that usually gets good results.
Here are some feats to consider...
improved initiative (being the first to act means everyone loses their dex bonus, always a plus)
weapon focus - unarmed (always pays off, this one)
weapon finesse - unarmed (for the high-dex/moderate-strength monk)
power critical and/or improved critical (some would disagree, but you'd be surprised how often you can confirm with the former)
freeze the lifeblood (this one you won't see til later, but when used against a spellcaster, it could mean the ballgame)
As for monk feats, I prefer stunning fist over improved grapple (which is nice if you going the strength route, but it ultimately lowers your AC and makes you vulnerable in the process), combat relflexes over snatch arrows (loads of AoO), and improved trip over improved disarm (one gives you an extra attack, the other doesn't). Basically, all grant additional attacks that you normally wouldn't have with the other flavored feats.
IMO, good races for monks would be human, dwarf, or half-orc. Some like elves for the high dex., but the low con. really hurts in the long run. Also, anything large, like a half-minotaur or a half-ogre, for example, would greatly increase your total number of AoO and overall presence on the battle-grid.
Lastly, monks need not be thought of as weak fighters because they're really more than fighters. They move faster, have a higher number of attacks, and better saves overall. They get spell resistance at higher levels and all kinds of immunities that a fighter would never see. They also have access to magic that could save you in a tight squeeze like dimension door, for example.
If you're in a group that tends toward the good, check out Vow of Poverty from Book of Exalted Deeds. When coupled with a monk (which it was intended for), it makes a ridiculously powerful combination; however, just make sure the cleric's got your back.
Have fun.
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Acid_crash
First Post
I like and not like Monks. As a class by itself, I think the Monk class rocks. All the special abilities they get, plus the added AC bonus and those flurry of blows they get at 11th level make them a combat machine. Take Weapon Focus - Unarmed Attack, gain a couple magic items that improve your Strength and Dexterity scores, and take the Vow of Poverty from Exalted Deeds and your monk will kick some serious butt.
I don't like the Monk class for a personal reason, which is that I don't think the Monk class fits a generic campaign world. For specific worlds in which monks and stuff like that fit the flavor of the world, then sure...but if it's a mediocre world that's just generic in feel, then the monk class shouldn't be used (but like i said, that's just a personal reason, nothing more).
I don't like the Monk class for a personal reason, which is that I don't think the Monk class fits a generic campaign world. For specific worlds in which monks and stuff like that fit the flavor of the world, then sure...but if it's a mediocre world that's just generic in feel, then the monk class shouldn't be used (but like i said, that's just a personal reason, nothing more).
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I'd say groovy. My perspective is that most of the agendas against the monks are either personal (just don't like 'em for some reason) or misinformed (yes, you're right, they can't hold their own as tanks in melee compared to fighters and barbarians...fill a different niche!)
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
The monk can negotiate a lot of situations on his own, but he is totally hopeless at helping out the party with anything.
He can jump, climb, hide and sneak. He can avoid being hit. He can make his saves. He can avoid spells.
He can't do much damage in combat. He can't find traps. He can't heal or buff.
IOW - sure the monk will usually survive and he'll always be able to negotiate problems, BUT it doesn't really do the party much good.
That, IMO, is the problem with the monk.
Note that you CAN avoid this with a good monk build, but if you go with what it seems most people think of as an "iconic" monk, you're destined for a long, valueless life.
He can jump, climb, hide and sneak. He can avoid being hit. He can make his saves. He can avoid spells.
He can't do much damage in combat. He can't find traps. He can't heal or buff.
IOW - sure the monk will usually survive and he'll always be able to negotiate problems, BUT it doesn't really do the party much good.
That, IMO, is the problem with the monk.
Note that you CAN avoid this with a good monk build, but if you go with what it seems most people think of as an "iconic" monk, you're destined for a long, valueless life.
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
I've never particularly cared for monks, whether in OD&D, 1E, or 3E. They've always seemed a bit out of place, to me -- the eastern-themed contemplative martial artist in an otherwise western-style fantasy game. All that ki business doesn't seem to quite fit with the rest of the character classes -- it's kind of like having a ninja core class along side the rogue. Drop him and move him to Oriental Adventures, I say -- with 3E, you can use feats to build a master of unarmed combat (or could, with the right feat set).
Inconsequenti-AL
Breaks Games
I like them a lot! As long as the monk player doesn't try and use them like a 'tank' fighter.
Between Combat reflexes and Improved Trip, all you need is reach to get really nasty at area denial.
Personally, I think EWP Spiked Chain and access to the enlarge spell is a nasty combination. Worked well for one of my players!
The PC in question was effective - his 2 main duties were mauling spellcasters and bugging enemy fighter types. Found he did both extremely well!
Down such a route, Prone Fighting (from complete warrior) is a very nice feat.
Between Combat reflexes and Improved Trip, all you need is reach to get really nasty at area denial.
Personally, I think EWP Spiked Chain and access to the enlarge spell is a nasty combination. Worked well for one of my players!
The PC in question was effective - his 2 main duties were mauling spellcasters and bugging enemy fighter types. Found he did both extremely well!
Down such a route, Prone Fighting (from complete warrior) is a very nice feat.
Eremite
Explorer
IMO, due to the lack of focus, a monk needs to be played really well to be effective.
Teamed with a wizard, they can be outstanding. A tactic used in one of my games is to polymorph the monk into a treant allowing its unarmed damage to be advanced by two "steps" (Medium to Hudge; a treant has only 7 HD so a 7th level party can do this). The increase in Str is also helpful but the key is the damage dice boost. This party also used to use the spell gird the warrior from the (Complete) Book of Eldritch Might to boost AC and attack and damage bonuses. All in all, a very nice combination.
Teamed with a wizard, they can be outstanding. A tactic used in one of my games is to polymorph the monk into a treant allowing its unarmed damage to be advanced by two "steps" (Medium to Hudge; a treant has only 7 HD so a 7th level party can do this). The increase in Str is also helpful but the key is the damage dice boost. This party also used to use the spell gird the warrior from the (Complete) Book of Eldritch Might to boost AC and attack and damage bonuses. All in all, a very nice combination.
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