Monks, Groovy or not so groovy?

[cignus_pfaccari]

I think they're groovy, though not complete funk-masters of groovosity.

They're great fun; you get to do all sorts of fun kung-fu things with them, they breach a surprising amount of DR, and most of their abilities are useful.

The one thing I'd remove from the monk is the Quivering Palm ability. I'm sorry, a once/week death effect that anyone will save against? Why would I ever use that? The other abilities are useful enough, but Quivering Palm needs to be dropped in favor of something else.

I'd like 6+Int skills, since the Ranger got them and the monk needs them just as much, if not more, but hey, I'll live.

Brad

 

[Al'Kelhar]

The monk can negotiate a lot of situations on his own, but he is totally hopeless at helping out the party with anything.

He can jump, climb, hide and sneak. He can avoid being hit. He can make his saves. He can avoid spells.

He can't do much damage in combat. He can't find traps. He can't heal or buff.

IOW - sure the monk will usually survive and he'll always be able to negotiate problems, BUT it doesn't really do the party much good.

That, IMO, is the problem with the monk.

Note that you CAN avoid this with a good monk build, but if you go with what it seems most people think of as an "iconic" monk, you're destined for a long, valueless life.

I agree completely. The monk class is the archetypal "5th wheel". And a "good monk build" often equates to "cheesy monk build" - the trip monkey with the reach weapon or the use of feats from non-core power-creep books like Complete Warrior. And the monk-as-arcane-spellcaster-mauler is a myth, IME. The monk can do good stuff, but he's a solo actor. And I can't recall a solo adventure ever being groovy.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[JoeGKushner]

Monks have a lot of utility in them, but a lot of that is going to depend on a few things.

1. Accepting a monk's limitations. A Monk is not a fighter. Repeat, a monk is not a fighter. Can they help in fighting? Yup. Can they move around as quitely as a rogue? Yup. Are they one of the most non-magical self sufficient classes in the book? Yup. Perfect for assassination or survival when the party is captured and put into prision.

2. Good magic item selection.

3. 3rd party resources. The Scarred Lands Guide to Monks & Paladins has some feats that should either be a)outlawed or b)mandatory. Quintessential Monk I & II have some good stuff and Beyond Monks, the Art of the Fight, has some good material.

4. A GM willing to roll with the monk's abilities. I have a 7th level monk with spring attack and a very high jump and tumble roll. The GM is a fan of Wuxia style action, so there's no problem with me running around and jumping from here to there. I get lots of attacks of opportunity, but with the Mobility, they don't hit as often as they normally would, and my character looks cool when moving around.

 

[The_Gneech]

Monks in D&D are something like martial arts IRL -- tricky to pull off properly, but occasionally devastating. So yeah, groovy, but you've got to work at it.

-The Gneech

 

[Doctor Shaft]

The 3rd party resources aren't that bad. Especially from Complete Warrior... a majority of those monk feats they list aren't even original, they just come from the Oriental Adventures campaign, with small revisions (like the not so ridiculous requirements to actually take some of their feats).

But in any case, having to sacrifice a stunning fist ability just to use the feat is hardly "power-creeping."

Monks are groovy, but generally only when you use reasonable 3rd party resources (Quintessential Monk, Complete Warrior is alright, I don't like the Beyond Monks book though at all).

But they are the 5th wheel. In most PnP games, the monk is either entirely too self-sufficient in the world they are put in, or are really only good at keeping themselves alive. A monk either dominates the mixed playing field, or struggles to help the others as he spends more time keeping himself out of trouble.

 

[Aaron L]

I've seen enough kung-fu fighting in 70's movies to know how groovy monks are.

Oh, and D&D monks are groovy too. My monk in our 6th level party has been the melee combatant from the beginning, with no signs of slowing down.

 

[takyris]

I like monks. I think the key with monks, similarly to what others have noted, is to make sure that they're good at something while keeping their "stay alive" capability active. All their defensive capability is fantastic, but a) you need a player who is happy with abilities that are useful but not flashy, like most "make it harder to kill me" abilities, and b) you need to make sure that you can still do something useful when you're the only person not poisoned, stunned, or badly wounded by fireballs.

 

[shock the monkey]

I've seen enough kung-fu fighting in 70's movies to know how groovy monks are.

Oh, and D&D monks are groovy too. My monk in our 6th level party has been the melee combatant from the beginning, with no signs of slowing down.

Precisely. My 2nd level dwarven monk single-handedly brought down an ogre last week. Tell me monks don't kick ass.

 

[The_Gneech]

Precisely. My 2nd level dwarven monk single-handedly brought down an ogre last week. Tell me monks don't kick ass.

Monks don't kick ass when a blow to the head would end the fight more quickly.

-The Gneech

 

[Testament]

In Living Greyhawk one of my friends has a 1/2 Orc Monk. To say he's nasty is an understatement, at 1st level he outwrestled a squid. At second he beat a leopard. He's a disgusting grappler, and has shattered final encounters where we face a spellcaster.

Iron Wolf proves that monks rock.