Monks: I have seen several posts regarding then and their abilities or lack there of

[Sir ThornCrest]

I do agree the idea of an unarmored martial butt kicker seems cool. And the Monk is intended on being a melee combatant thru all levels. They can get some feats to help them with this BUT and a big but at that, there is a problem. The problem is thier lack of ability to cause damage, well its ok but thats it just ok. And their armor class, if they dont have a 18 wis and a 18 dex they will find it hard to advance in levels. Plain rap fighter chain =5 + shield = 7 + dex...they need magicals to compensate. And if they really get some good magics then their great to play.

I have played monks and at lower levels they are fine, great saving throws they move fast and have some pretty good feats. But the basic fundamentals of a melee combatant are lagging behind. (bab, ac, damage). I have heard some people defend them however in my opinion and in my experience they just dont got what it takes to last in combat.

As a DM I had to fudge rolls just to keep my pc's Monk alive. We started at 1st level. He was fine 15 str, 13 int, 14 wis, 16 dex, 14 con, 16 cha. He bought dodge and was ok. By 4th level yes he could take half damage from area spells and he had great saves but he started noticing the fighter was hitting more, causing more damage and had more hit pts. (jealous)

He survived until the later levels 12th because he would run away and make saving throws..Over all he couldnt heal himself effectively at higher levels so he like a combatant was dependant on magic if any and the cleric. He had a +2 staff and that was his main weapon-used with all monk abilities was still....well blah!

Over all our gaming group has determined its a good class to multiclass with.

I am interested in opposing or like experiences with this class.

Thorncrest

this isnt a monk linching just the common view of our game group.

 

[Samuel Leming]

You've managed to cast the Summon Sam cantrip successfully. The problem with this spell is that the somatic component involved you stepping on my pet peeve! You must now deduct 2d6 sanity points.

The strength of the monk class is that it has no weaknesses and its weakness is that it has no strengths. Kind of a psuedo-zen thing.

The monk is not intended by its design to be a frontline fighting class. I've found that it fights about as well as a cleric or druid. It appears to be designed more as a mystic on a path towards personal physical perfection. The class is fun to play and balanced if a player approaches it as such. The problem is that most monk players want to play the "unarmored martial butt kicker" they've seen in all the modern martial arts movies and pick the monk because it's the closest thing to that concept. As you've seen, failure rears it cross-eyed head sooner rather than later.

Here's some better options that are actually designed to fight well:

• The Defender from Midnight
• Hong's poorly named but otherwise excellent Martial Artist class
• My own attempt at an Unarmed Feats based Fighter Variant.

Good luck,

Sam

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

I think Sam about hit the nail on the head, though I'd say that the Monk does have a major purpose in front-line combat at all levels- the Monk is designed to close to melee and engage non-melee combatants- primarily spellcasters, ranged fighters, and rogues. Take a look at it's abilities- high saving throws, magic resistances, speed, evasion- the Monk isn't meant to go toe-to-toe with heavily armored tank fighters, trolls, dragons or the like, the Monk is designed to AVOID THESE ALL TOGETHER and kick the living snot out of the wizard, cleric, archer, etc. that said tank is standing in front of, while somebody else handles the tank- someone who doesn't have good saves and speedy movement, and needs the monk to take out the guys who can take advantage of that fact.

So, while a monk can fill the standard melee role at low-levels, at higher levels they're intended for avoiding toe-to-toe fights and taking out soft targets- that's what their abilities are made for....

 

[Doctor Shaft]

Here's what I think about the monk (since I play them all the time).

The great thing about them is, as others have just said, it has NO weaknesses. However, the biggest crutch is that it isn't really good at anything either. The monk is the king of mediocrity, and that's it's greatest power. When you get to higher level, all the traps, bombs, area affect spells, and even just spells themselves, all the annoying stuff on a battle mat that every other class in D&D has to worry about, is completely ignored by the monk (well, almost).

And that's why I always play the class. If you avoid approaching the class as a "Gotta max out my AC and AB" kind of character, and go for the all-around abilities, the monk really really shines.

Of course, the monk also horribly fails in any other area besides kicking clerics and wizards butts (and I tend to think it's more just wizards... clerics have buff spells, and they have the power to prepare themselves for a melee fight with a wizard... wizards less so, but a canny, crafty caster that doesn't focus solely on blasting people with magic can do a few things).

In terms of actually hitting targets in combat... yes, a monk naturally can't hit much, which is the greatest blow to the class. However, even in core D&D, getting your hands on a monks belt practically negates this weakness. Followed by an amulet of some kind, and you're rocking.

However... not all campaigns are simply "Magicks R U$" games, so you might not get that.

At the end of the day, I think the monk class is all about special abilities. While I like the martial artist class variants that fans and 3rd party sources have come up with, I think the monk should serve as the class with the most "special unarmed combat" abilities. Unfortunately, very few of the Core feats support that at all. They support the fighter all the time, which is great. And the metamagic feats are made just for the spellcasters. But the monk gets... well, he gets stunning fist, and then the lame ability to use stunning fist more (which is great if everyone was a low fortitude, first level wizard).

I think sources like Oriental Adventures, and others, got it right when they introduced cool feats that didn't boost AC or increase AB for the monk, but allowed him to make tactical attacks. If you ever play a game, and if you could convince your DM to allow some of those feats, even if you don't hit as often or hurt as much, you can at least stand a chance at disabling more than just the corny Wizard (hey, it's cool monks can kill them, but it's like the cleric that just heals people - it's boring).

I'll leave it at that. The 3rd Party sources that provide alternative unarmed strike abilities (Complete Warrior only has 3 specific ones, not all of them, although Defensive Strike, another OA feat, is in there, and it's still good if you happen to be a monk).

Monks are like pseud-spellcasters. If you get feats that let you use your stunning fist pool for stuff other than "try to stun a guy with his fort save... even though 80% of them will have one you can't beat very reliably", then the low AC and AB thing is hardly a hinderance.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

the Monk isn't meant to go toe-to-toe with heavily armored tank fighters, trolls, dragons or the like, the Monk is designed to AVOID THESE ALL TOGETHER and kick the living snot out of the wizard, cleric, archer, etc

Unfortunately, a lot of people play the monk "wrong" because they're really looking for something like the Defender, Hong's Martial Artist, Sam's feats, and so forth. Not everyone knows about these products, and only have WotC to guide them. Since WotC will never release a good DnD martial artist, they will forever be disappointed.

 

[maddman75]

The problem, as other have alluded, is that the monk is *not* an unarmed buttkicker. This is a sword and sorcery game. If you want to kick butt, get yourself a sword or some sorcery. The monk is a support character. I'm playing one right now, and my job is to back up the other characters. A monk's duties include

- Tumbling into position so the rogue gets sneak attack.
- If the big warriors get disarmed, run and get their weapons for them.
- When the ranger/rogue/sneaky guy goes off to scout, go along to back him up.
- If there's a wizard, kill it until it's dead.
- If your wizard gets threatened, zip over to save him.
- If something new or unexpected on the battlefield happens, go and deal with it.
- Annoy your fellow characters with zen-like sayings as a solution to all problems. (example NPC "If you try to escape the guards will kill you!" Me "Death is inevitable no matter what I do. I will act with honor."



Oh, and if you're playing in Arthaus's Warcraft D&D, Panderans are BAAAA-roken as monks. You get a bonus to Con and Dex with no penalty, a natural AC bonus, a bite attack in addition to the hands/claws, and a bonus to speed if you go on all fours. Only down side is a penalty to speed on 2 legs and fighting, but your monk abilities quickly make up for it.

Besides, who can resist playing a Kung-fu Panda bear? And when something goes wrong you get to say "That makes me a sad panda..."