D&D 5E Monks Suck

I am NOT a monk fan. I like blade pact warlocks. We all have our faults.

but like my favorite class and subclass, I wonder if monks have something that gets overlooked.
Force or power projection is really important and a boon in D&D, war games and warfare.

Although monks are average by many measures, are they good at getting to vital targets? That seemingly would count for something.

sort of like my blade pact warlock using misty step to get past mooks and right up on the dais with the evil cleric...

I dunno. If that are good at that How does that impact their value or capability?
 

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Oh come on,

attack action is a term of art that usually means a full series of attacks (however many you have) which could be confused for saying the stunning attack takes your entire attack action.

I was just trying to clarify - not disagree with you. This thread has too many misunderstandings (intentional or otherwise) as it is.

OK fair enough.
 

I am NOT a monk fan. I like blade pact warlocks. We all have our faults.

but like my favorite class and subclass, I wonder if monks have something that gets overlooked.
Force or power projection is really important and a boon in D&D, war games and warfare.

Although monks are average by many measures, are they good at getting to vital targets? That seemingly would count for something.

sort of like my blade pact warlock using misty step to get past mooks and right up on the dais with the evil cleric...

I dunno. If that are good at that How does that impact their value or capability?
There isn't a formula for it, so it has to be analyzed using actual experimentation and analysis on the tests.

Otherwise, we can only guess how well it works.
 


These 1 on 1s depend on too many factors!

Here for example, do they start at beyond 5 feet apart? If they do and the EK wins initiative, then casts blur - that's very bad for the monk (and I mean bad, assuming full access to spells for the EK, the monk is looking at having to hit AC 26 with disadvantage - something like a 4% chance per hit). If the monk wins initiative or if they start only 5' apart, that's much better for the monk - if he goes all in on the ki and stunning strikes especially.

Edit: and while fun as an exercise it won't really prove (or even show) anything - It's a group game not street-fighter!
Oh yeah, 1v1 is purely a fun excercise!

It also tends to run counter to all sorts of spreadsheet based conclusions about optimization, which can be interesting, and a fun reminder not to take those analysis too seriously.

My buddy and I did a 1v1 in 4e with our half-orc cousins, a barbarian and an assassin. We did have to make a concession that my assassin could teleport from his own shadow to his enemy's shadow, because the class wasn't built for 1v1 in that single aspect, of course, but it was really really fun, and much closer than you'd expect.

The first one reminds me of the early days of 3E, when some folks were appalled at the idea of monks being introduced as a "core" class in the Player's Handbook. Some folks never liked the monk, and they never will.

...

I'm in the first camp. Unless I'm running a Wuxia, kung fu, or anime-style campaign, something along the lines of "Avatar: The Last Airbender" or "Seven Samurai," I'm probably going to drop them from my list. (And if I happen to be running such a game, I'd probably go this route.) The mechanics aren't the issue; I just don't care for the theme.
Query: If I were joining your group for a hypothetical campaign where you were inclined to exclude monks, assuming a swashbuckler sort of character concept would be appropriate in general, and I wanted to play a Monk (probably kensei or drunken master flavored as someone who employs a style of fighitng that causes enemies to overreach and get in eachother's way, like a trickier Spanish Circle) as a sort of Aramis-style musketeer/man of god, would you allow that?

Because I think honestly the PHB should have focused the lore less on Asian themes, and let the class breath a bit more, and that is 90% of why it feels off for some campaigns.
 

Oh yeah, 1v1 is purely a fun excercise!

It also tends to run counter to all sorts of spreadsheet based conclusions about optimization, which can be interesting, and a fun reminder not to take those analysis too seriously.

My buddy and I did a 1v1 in 4e with our half-orc cousins, a barbarian and an assassin. We did have to make a concession that my assassin could teleport from his own shadow to his enemy's shadow, because the class wasn't built for 1v1 in that single aspect, of course, but it was really really fun, and much closer than you'd expect.


Query: If I were joining your group for a hypothetical campaign where you were inclined to exclude monks, assuming a swashbuckler sort of character concept would be appropriate in general, and I wanted to play a Monk (probably kensei or drunken master flavored as someone who employs a style of fighitng that causes enemies to overreach and get in eachother's way, like a trickier Spanish Circle) as a sort of Aramis-style musketeer/man of god, would you allow that?

Because I think honestly the PHB should have focused the lore less on Asian themes, and let the class breath a bit more, and that is 90% of why it feels off for some campaigns.
When I first wanted to play Monk in 5e, I had absolutely no interest in asian fiction about it. I wanted to be a sort-of boxer/brawler character that could wreck people with only his fists. I never played monk back in 3.5e

All of the wuxia terminology made it weird and I didn't actually use Ki as the name of the resource. It was more like "stamina" or something. But taking the class as it is, it's "annoyingly asian." Which also describes my cooking style.
 

I am NOT a monk fan. I like blade pact warlocks. We all have our faults.

but like my favorite class and subclass, I wonder if monks have something that gets overlooked.
Force or power projection is really important and a boon in D&D, war games and warfare.

Although monks are average by many measures, are they good at getting to vital targets? That seemingly would count for something.

sort of like my blade pact warlock using misty step to get past mooks and right up on the dais with the evil cleric...

I dunno. If that are good at that How does that impact their value or capability?

At higher level they can run up walls so they could... at like... level 9? They also get a bonus to speed but that's only useful if you can avoid OA.

A Shadow Monk, at level 3, can teleport from one shadow to another as a bonus action and has advantage on all attacks made afterward. Which is cool, but I often use the shadow stepping to get OUT of the fray after attacking so that advantage is kinda lost.

As a Monk I feel all too frail to suddenly appear in the middle of the enemy's forces without an easy way to bounce out of there in the same turn.
 

It also tends to run counter to all sorts of spreadsheet based conclusions about optimization, which can be interesting, and a fun reminder not to take those analysis too seriously.

I agree it can be interesting, but it doesn't say too much one way or another about quantitative estimates. Monte Carlo simulations more generally would be an improvement over calculations on a spreadsheet --- for me, the gold standard would be to write down a standardized set of encounters that make up an adventuring day that are varied in terms of difficulty level, whether there are a few powerful monsters or lots of little ones, with a good cross-section of casters and melee brutes, etc., with some rules about how the monsters act, and simulate a few different party comps through those encounters, and see how it turns out (and how many resources they have left at the end). I guess that's more or less what @Asisreo is suggesting, but actually putting that into code in a way that can be automated enough times for the d20 variance to wash out is... pretty intractable.

So, realistically, it seems to me a person has three choices:
1. They can settle for good faith attempts to quantify effectiveness in simpler ways, which necessarily abstract away a lot of detail, but if guided by reasonable estimates and iterated with input from people with lots of different table experiences, is hopefully a decent approximation. Maybe that's computing some averages for benchmark encounters!
2. They can decide none of this matters --- they don't actually care about character's objective power levels and just want to play the game.
3. They can decide they do care about power levels, but reject any attempt to quantify it objectively, and instead 'go with their gut' and express their opinions online as though they reflected a greater reality than someone doing 1.

I personally favor 1, and welcome constructive input from anyone and everyone who has a (realistic) way to refine the estimates. I also have no problem with someone who picks 2 --- D&D is fun in lots of different ways, and plenty of people can have fun without ever getting into the quantitative side of it. I do take issue with 3 though -- specifically the second half of three where they loudly complain and take it personally if people give quantitative measures that conflict with their subjective experience. Note, again, that dismissing quantitative analysis entirely is entirely different from constructively criticizing the specific methodology being used. It's also different from saying that 'mechanical effectiveness' isn't what's important to you. I'm all for trying to improve on methodology, and I also completely respect people with different priorities. But if you actually want to be part of a conversation about mechanics, you need to offer up something constructive; not just say 'spreadsheet, spreadsheet, white room, white room' over and over.
 

This appears to be an emotional topic for a lot of people. I don't know why - I am advocating for some feats, magic items, and subclasses for the monk. Why are people reacting like I kicked their puppy?
Because that's simply another way of saying "my [pet class/ character build / angsty uber concept that's only mine and is really kewl] needs more official support from WotC". And, @Mistwell, you're far too sensible and mature to throw that kinda thing out there.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar
 

Because that's simply another way of saying "my [pet class/ character build / angsty uber concept that's only mine and is really kewl] needs more official support from WotC". And, @Mistwell, you're far too sensible and mature to throw that kinda thing out there.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

It's not really what we're talking about?

Like, whenever we say "Fighters suck outside of combat, they should get something more" there's ALWAYS this massive pushback of "The Fighter is fine! Shut up and stop ruining our fun!" like we insulted them or something... geez.

Me and others just see some flaws in the game in aspects we care about and want to talk what would help those improve... becaue this is a friggin' discusion board and COVID-19 took away my only game and this is the only friggin' way I can interact with the game, so can people just LET US HAVE SOME FUN DISCUSSING WAYS TO BUFF THINGS THEY SEEM TO THINK ARE FINE?!

I get it if we were talking nerfs, but this is BUFFS were talking about! Why does it matter?! They're not even accusing us of just wanting to be OP or some munchkin stuff. No, they're just dismissing our concern and acting insulted.
 

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