Except that this is a fairly big thing to get wrong and these creatures are much more moral and intelligent, presumably, than mortals. And there are also independant ways of verifying information. So it seems like the bureaucrats of the US government convincing people that China doesn't exist - because they believe it themselves. And these bureaucrats have 25 intelligence and are immortal. And all lie about the same thing and don't report each other for it.
Monotheism in a Polytheistic setting?
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Except that this is a fairly big thing to get wrong and these creatures are much more moral and intelligent, presumably, than mortals. And there are also independant ways of verifying information. So it seems like the bureaucrats of the US government convincing people that China doesn't exist - because they believe it themselves. And these bureaucrats have 25 intelligence and are immortal. And all lie about the same thing and don't report each other for it.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Gizmo33 said:
Well, according to devout believers, the Torah/Bible/Qu'ran/Avestas are all 100% accurate revelations literally by God himself.
So I steal that idea: everything is contradictory. You cast Commune and get two different answers from two different sources. You Plane Shift to Heaven and the Angels disagree. That frozen guy in the middle of the planet ain't talkin'.
A monotheistic Good deity would gain TRUTH by insulting the other good deities, who obviously aren't so good, or they wouldn't go around lying and deceiving those poor ignorant mortals, now, would they?
That's kind of the conceit of the pagans of my monotheistic setting: they believe the Earth Mother is Good because she gives them food. Nevermind that she might not actually be a "true god" or whatever, they know what sacrificing to her gives them food. It's a functional religion, cause and effect, that doesn't preclude dishonest deities who might treat mortals well just to perpetuate their lies and false power.
In fact, in Planescape, the Athar sect has shades of this, believing all gods to be frauds. Some of 'em even believe in a Great Unknown that gives the gods all of their worldly powers. And, of course, since it's Planescape, that's entirely true as far as any of them know.
Dire Bare
Legend
We're going to have to agree to disagree. As long as we're all having fun in our games, it's all good.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Well that is the question, isn't it? Does Commune actually solve the problem or is a D&D world with ambiguity in the divine realm like a world where everyone arbitrarily hops on one foot every third wednesday of the month between 7:00 and 7:30?
The test case was proposed that you would just cast commune and ask "Is Zeus a god?" "Is Zeus chaotic good?" Let's suppose that you asked the question; would the answers really tell you what the situation was?
Consider the following possible situations:
A. Zeus is a greater god, he is chaotic good, the henotheistic god in question is an ascended mortal like the Ptolus deity
B. Zeus is a god like 4e Orcus is a god--a demon and a god at the same time, but he is disguising that fact and from the other deities and from mortals; the henotheistic god in question is an ascended mortal like the Ptolus deity
C. Zeus is a god like 4e Orcus is a god--a demon and a god at the same time, but he is disguising that fact and from the other deities and from mortals; the henotheistic god in question is an omniscient creator god who is good.
D. Zeus is a god, but the monotheistic deity in question is a creator god; he doesn't want to outright obliterate those of his servants who have claimed mortal devotion, but does not believe it is right to worship them.
E. Zeus is a god, like 4e Orcus is a god--a demon and a god at the same time
F. Zeus is not a god, he is just a demon prince who is channeling someone else's power.
G. The mono/henotheistic god in question is an evil rebel or demon prince and Zeus if both really a god and really Chaotic Good.
Now, we'll suppose that two priests cast commune or any other divination spell.
Priest 1 is a priest of the mono (or heno)theistic god in question.
Priest 2 is a priest of Zeus
A1. Is Zeus a God? Unknown/no answer or yes are both possible answers. Maybe because the Ptolus like god has reason to suspect that Zeus might not be a god. Yes because Zeus is obviously receiving worship and distributing spells.
Is Zeus Chaotic Good? Unknown/no answer or yes are both possible answers.
A2. Is Zeus a God? Of course. Is Zeus Chaotic Good? Of course
B1. Is Zeus a God? Unknown/no answer, and yes possible answers. Maybe because the Ptolus like god has reason to suspect that Zeus might not be a god. Yes because Zeus is obviously receiving worship and distributing spells. Yes because the appropriate handbook says that Zeus is the Demongod of such and such.
Is Zeus Chaotic Good? Unknown/no answer, yes, and no are all possible answers. Unknown/no answer because the Zeus depicted by the religion does not exist and has no alignment. Yes because the Zeus officially depicted by the religion has the traits that are associated with Chaotic Good. No because Zeus is really a demon who is chaotic evil.
B2. The priest will say, Of course Zeus is a god. Of course Zeus is Chaotic Good.
Whether his commune indicates that Zeus is Chaotic Good or not is another story--that probably depends upon how subtle the demon Zeus is being with his fake religion. In the event that the priest is lying, however, how would you know? Bluff can be a class skill for clerics with the right domain. Discern lies grants a will save (which clerics are notoriously good at). So does Zone of Truth.
C1. Is Zeus a god? Could be yes or no. If yes, it is because he receives worship and has the powers associated with gods in the experiences of mortals. If no, it is because Zeus is not a god in the same way that said Creator god is a god.
Is Zeus Chaotic Good? Yes.
C2. The priest will say, Of course Zeus is a god. Of course Zeus is Chaotic Good.
Whether his commune indicates that Zeus is Chaotic Good or not is another story--that probably depends upon how subtle the demon Zeus is being with his fake religion. In the event that the priest is lying, however, how would you know? Bluff can be a class skill for clerics with the right domain. Discern lies grants a will save (which clerics are notoriously good at). So does Zone of Truth.
D1. Is Zeus a god? Could be yes or no. If yes, it is because he receives worship and has the powers associated with gods in the experiences of mortals. If no, it is because Zeus is not a god in the same way that said Creator god is a god.
Is Zeus Chaotic Good? No.
D2. The priest will say, Of course Zeus is a god. Of course Zeus is Chaotic Good.
Whether his commune indicates that Zeus is Chaotic Good or not is another story--that probably depends upon how subtle the demon Zeus is being with his fake religion. In the event that the priest is lying, however, how would you know? Bluff can be a class skill for clerics with the right domain. Discern lies grants a will save (which clerics are notoriously good at). So does Zone of Truth.
E1. Is Zeus a god? Yes
Is Zeus Chaotic Good? No.
E2. The priest will say, Of course Zeus is a god. Of course Zeus is Chaotic Good.
Whether his commune indicates that Zeus is Chaotic Good or not is another story--that probably depends upon how subtle the demon Zeus is being with his fake religion. In the event that the priest is lying, however, how would you know? Bluff can be a class skill for clerics with the right domain. Discern lies grants a will save (which clerics are notoriously good at). So does Zone of Truth.
F1. Is Zeus a god? No.
Is Zeus Chaotic Good? No.
F2. The priest will say, Of course Zeus is a god. Of course Zeus is Chaotic Good.
Whether his commune indicates that Zeus is a god and is Chaotic Good or not is another story--that probably depends upon how subtle the demon Zeus is being with his fake religion. In the event that the priest is lying, however, how would you know? Bluff can be a class skill for clerics with the right domain. Discern lies grants a will save (which clerics are notoriously good at). So does Zone of Truth.
G1. Is Zeus a god? No.
Is Zeus Chaotic Good? No.
G2. Is Zeus a god? Yes. Is Zeus Chaotic Good? Yes.
Some of these scenarios assume deception of the level to deceive gods (which is not exactly new to D&D or to mythology--that's one of the things that demons and trickster gods (and sometimes giants) can sometimes do in story and myth). Some of them don't.
Note that, in all cases, the answer that anyone would receive from the priest of Zeus is unchanged and the answer that the priest of Zeus would receive will only change if he is initiated into the cult of the true-evil-Zeus. In most of these cases, all of which presume different scenarios about the divine reality, the exact same set of answers are possible and most notably, in probably the two cases where there is no ambiguity as to which answer might be correct--cases F and G--the answers are exactly the same even though the situation is more or less reversed.
And this assumes complete honesty upon the part of any putatively divine entities in question and no covenant of silence or any other such device by which certain questions might not be answerable. It also assumes that the answers to the question are static and unchanging and ignores the possibility that an individual could become a god by gaining sufficient power (as Orcus did in the transition from 3.5 to 4th edition and Vecna did in the transition from 2nd edition to 3rd edition). In that case, the answer might have been "no, Zeus is not a god (he's really Orcus)" three years ago and "Yes, Zeus is a god (he's really Orcus)" this year. And, it always could be that Zeus was chaotic neutral (on a good day) when Homer was writing stories about him but has since hired an image consultant and taken sensitivity training and cleaned up his act so that he is now chaotic good. In that case, the answer could have been, "no, he is not chaotic good" yesterday and "yes, he is chaotic good" today.
Additionally, the PHB itself suggests that commune is often answered by an important or ranking servant of the deity rather than by the deity directly. In a lot of cases, the answer is ambiguous and it would not necessarily be going outside the RAW to suppose that the same question could yield a different answer based upon which high ranking servant of the god in question answered. "The title god implies worthiness to be worshipped, therefore demon-god Zeus is not a god" is as legitimate a reason for a no answer as "Zeus is a demon with the power of a god--he is a deciever and a usurper but technically, he is a god even though you shouldn't worship him" is a legitimate reason that such a servant might answer yes. I can imagine fantasy theologians saying that there is some ambiguity on the topic of whether or not Zeus is a god and there are many theories as to what that means, but either way, it is clear that we are not supposed to worship him. (People being what they are, it also likely that some fantasy theologians would seize upon that ambiguity as an excuse to participate in offerings to Zeus--especially if they were socially expected, enabled them to meet wealthy potential patrons, or involved hedonistic orgies).
It is also even likely that, whatever the situation, charlatans would attempt to muddy the waters with false claims of definitive answers to your burning questions through real or fake commune spells. We have had plenty of people in the real world from Montanus to Joan of Arc to Joseph Smith to Mary Baker Eddy claim to hear from the beyond/god and I'm pretty sure that they can't all have been telling the truth. In a fantasy world where supernatural claims are more generally plausible, I would expect such things to be more common. From an NPC's perspective, this would make verification by divination more suspect--maybe from a PC's perspective as well if different divinations came up with different answers on the subjects. (If Contact Other plane yields a different answer from Commune, you know there is deception somewhere).
Toss in those sources of ambiguity and there is no guarantee that PCs would be able to obtain a clear picture of the game-world reality by simply using commune and not much of a chance that they would be able to convince NPCs to change their minds on the basis of a commune spell.
In my campaign I assume that the gods don't exist independent of the devotion of intelligent creatures. Deities are created from the primal Chaos by sentient beings' desire to have something to worship. The miracles apparently granted by divinities are just another form of magic, which works by the focusing of the will through fanatical devotion. The focused will gives form to the Chaos which underlies reality, and can even change established realities (magic). The Gods believe that they existed before other sentient beings, and remember themselves creating the Universe, but those memories are false. The answers one gets through things like Commune are just the answers that the deity believes to be true. There are many religions, some monotheistic, some polytheistic, and all are ultimately equally false. Since all of their most fanatical members can perform apparent miracles, however, they all believe themselves to be right. Many people are atheists, particularly wizards. I actually have a Philosopher class, which can do most of what a Cleric does, but get's its special powers through an obsessive desire to understand the Universe.
Herobizkit
Adventurer
I guess what I'm trying to drive home is that, yes, the DM DOES have to know the deities of his own cosmology; in a sense, the DM IS "God" of his creation, and thus decides what is true and false worship of the priests in his campaign world. Heck, even whether or not the existence of the divine can be proven or dis-proven by mortals is entirely in the DM's hands.
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Dire Bare
Legend
A monotheistic church doesn't make an awful lot of sense in a world where there is absolute proof that other gods exist. Perhaps if the church in question claimed that those gods are not, in fact, gods, but some other sort of entity?
[Edit - should have read the whoe thread first - I see this is already being discussed!]
[Edit - should have read the whoe thread first - I see this is already being discussed!]
WalterKovacs
First Post
Just a bit based on my admitedly limited anthropology experience.
Once you start dealing with worshiping gods you have three forms: Pantheism, Polytheism and Monotheism.
The distinction between Pantheism and Polytheism is whether you accept 'outside' gods.
The Romans, for example, were Polytheistic. They had the Pantheon that they worshiped, but when they conquered new areas, they accepted that other areas might have their gods, and thus would worship gods in those areas. They were fine with other people worshiping their own gods, as long as when in Rome, they did as the Roman's did.
A Pantheistic religion is effectively a Monotheistic religion, the only difference being that their is a group instead of just one. However, in both cases, any 'outside' gods are 'not real' and should not be worshiped or even considered to exist.
The reasons there would be few monotheistic religions in a D&D setting would be the same reason it would be unlikely for their to be agnostics or atheists in the setting. When there is actual contact with gods, and divine intervention, etc ... it's harder to 'not' believe. Some groups could believe in a system of "One god, many saints/angels/demons/etc" that basically puts the "one god" one step above all the existing stuff that goes on.
In a 4e setting (as the OP said this would be), it's possible that during the heroic tier at least, a monotheistic religion could exist. Divine power in 4e is a bit more vague, with the 'defy your god -> lose your power' equation from Paladin's gone, for example. The god would likely be unalligned, giving the followers an explanation of why the god would seemingly give anyone that 'asks' divine power. Some sort of balance/ying-yang based god would make sense.
Once you start dealing with worshiping gods you have three forms: Pantheism, Polytheism and Monotheism.
The distinction between Pantheism and Polytheism is whether you accept 'outside' gods.
The Romans, for example, were Polytheistic. They had the Pantheon that they worshiped, but when they conquered new areas, they accepted that other areas might have their gods, and thus would worship gods in those areas. They were fine with other people worshiping their own gods, as long as when in Rome, they did as the Roman's did.
A Pantheistic religion is effectively a Monotheistic religion, the only difference being that their is a group instead of just one. However, in both cases, any 'outside' gods are 'not real' and should not be worshiped or even considered to exist.
The reasons there would be few monotheistic religions in a D&D setting would be the same reason it would be unlikely for their to be agnostics or atheists in the setting. When there is actual contact with gods, and divine intervention, etc ... it's harder to 'not' believe. Some groups could believe in a system of "One god, many saints/angels/demons/etc" that basically puts the "one god" one step above all the existing stuff that goes on.
In a 4e setting (as the OP said this would be), it's possible that during the heroic tier at least, a monotheistic religion could exist. Divine power in 4e is a bit more vague, with the 'defy your god -> lose your power' equation from Paladin's gone, for example. The god would likely be unalligned, giving the followers an explanation of why the god would seemingly give anyone that 'asks' divine power. Some sort of balance/ying-yang based god would make sense.
It's not all that hard to ditch the divine power source (and the primal power source, too) entirely in 4e, if you want more vagueness and uncertainty regarding religion.
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