Monotheism

[BluWolf]

My campaign world is essentially Monothiestic with many religious sects interpreting and worshipping in a different way.

The catalyst for this is three fold;

1) Religious Dogma vd. Divine Reality. The one true god is an all powerful diey in absentia similar to an Illuvatar from the Silmarillion. Mortals do not know or interact with this being in any definable or quatifiable way. They have a belief system that they use to grasp the divine and base their faith upon that system. ANy semblance between Dogma and reality is almost always coincedental.

2) Almost all spell casting ability of a divine nature is granted by ritual inclusion in a religious sect. You can cast spells because the High Council of Scrolls as given you the sacraments of the scrolls. I say almost because evil people are actually drawing power from 1 of any 1000 diabolic powers. Not gods. Just Devils/demons.

3) This one is blatantly borrowed from Keith Martin and Stewart MacWilliam from the Palaetra website. (http://webpages.charter.net/wpeacock/palaestra/) and how they handle aligment. Essentially, the assorted alignment rules are geared to only work on elemental sorts of god and evil. Good and evil actions are not affected nor detected. So while detect evil will detect something like a demon or devil it will NOT detect the fact that the dear old Abbot is actually Lawful Evil and no longer Lawful Good.

The last point is ESSENTIAL in my mind to pull off any kind of campaign world that deals morality issues as part of it's concept. The core rules IMHO provides to lazy a path for PCs and the DM alike.

As far as differing sects and races go, I have always treated this as a cultural issue rather than a racial one. I do not by the concept that the demihuman races should be as homogenized as they are traditioanlly potrayed. Their religious beliefs are as influenced by varying cultures as humans are.

I do use a "saint" system. More for presitge class purposes. These do not represent the majority of clerics in the various faiths. More like specific sects ro special functions.

The demi-human gods (only the major ones) have been changed to heroes in the various races traditions and it does vary from race to race. Dwarves do tend to be more traditionalist than other races so most dwraven religous pratices will involve Moradin in there some how. To the dwarves, Moradin is a scriptual paragon of a good and moral life. The elves, genrally less religous or obessive about it, do give a nod to Oberon as an inspiration of the values they tend to exalt. I killed all the gnomes.

I have had a lot of success with this approach and I think my players have enjoyed it as great change of pace from traditional divine style campaigns. Even seasoned players find them selves encountering something new in the approach.

 

[BluWolf]

Uh, another point.

You will need to decide if you will use the cleric class as defined or rework it.

I changed the core class to that of a Priest. Less militaristic. More booky and social. A player IMC can multiclass or follow PRC to make his or her Priest either more of a diplomat or contempltor or warrior.

The biggest way to provide your players with a more unique feel for YOUR campaign worlds religious system is in the Domains.

Look here for an EXCELLENT example of what I mean;

http://jontweet.home.attbi.com/jotelysombracler.html

While this approach does take a ceratin degree of heavy lifting it is an assume way to give each religion its own look and feel.

 

[Oubliette]

Ok, a few thoughts (thanks for all the ideas)

While merely basing powers on strength of belief would be the simplest, it raises a sticky question, at least in my mind. Why couldn't an equally pious fighter cast divine magic, then? As it stands, I'm going to say that only those within the church structures can cast spells (not that they're all clerics, just that their the only ones with the options).

As for simply making the God neutral, that still doesn't click for me. Firstly, I want the possible alignments to run the full spectrum from LG to CE (though most will be lawful), and secondly, when I think of monotheism, I think of a transcendant, mystical, somewhat incomprehensible god, as opposed to an "aspect" god, which to me means any alignment is out.

BluWolf: Excellent point about Detect _____ spells, but I tossed those long ago when we ran into some problems with them.

I had another thought, this one about domains. Let me know what you think. I am going to make them fluid and changeable. It will work something like this: Player comes to me with a character concept, and I asign him two domains based on what I deem most appropriate to his PC's personnality. Now suppose down the road the PC's drive changes (maybe he settles down in a little village, or makes it his mission to wipe out undead), then I would change his domains to reflect this change. My logic is that since God is all things and all aspects, all the PC is doing is tapping into a different part of the God's being. Thoughts? Experiences?

Also, I am very interested in anyones experiences or ideas concerning political and dogmatic struggles within a church. Anyone?

 

[Oubliette]

YOU KILLED ALL THE GNOMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BluWolf]

YOU KILLED ALL THE GNOMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I've just never been a fan. I actuallt killed them back in the mid 80s. I guess no one noticed.

As far as eliminating the spells whole sale, I thought about doing that and just felt that was too drastic a response to the problem. But I also feel it is very much a flavor point.

The fluid domain aspect sounds intresting but I know for me as a player I would like to have more control over my destiny STS.

I would prefer to look at a sytem or campaign world. See how things work and my options and then make up MY own mind on things. I think this was a point that was sort of emphasised in 3E. Allowing players to make choices about their characters abilities and how they wanted them to progess.

"I want the X domain and the Y domain because at 8th level it will let me pick up the Reverend Pimp prestige Class."

I also think it is a cool way for the players to challenge the GMs own peceptions of his world and what is possible.

Putting it down in concrete makes the GM play by the rules as much as it does the players.

I do like your concept of changing domains though. It would seem logical if a young priest of so and so retires after a life of spreading the world he may no longer need that travel or war domain. Maybe he has retired to an abby to pursue intellectual endeavors? A knockledge domain would seem more appropriate.

IMC were divine spell casting is granted by religious sacrements I guess I would allow a PC to switch a domain at the behest of the church. Not something to be undertaken lightly or without commiment. Once done the character could never return to that domain again.

Thanks for the idea.

 

[maddman75]

I've got some idaes for a campaign setting rattling around in my head - I'll share some of them with you.

The world is monotheistic, mostly. Amound the civilized humans, there is only the one goddess. Her worshippers are clerics and paladins. There are a variety of saints however, that interpret her teachings differently. She has no alignment, recognizing that a variety of approaches to life are needed to let people prosper.

So a CG cleric and a LE one serve the same goddess, just under the auspices of a different saint. Each saint would train their adherants with a different set of abilities - ie, domains. The different sects would get along at least in theory, with some conflicts sprouting up from time to time.

In actuality, there once were many gods. But in the distant past there was a mighty godswar, and she was the only one left standing, absorbing the portfolios of the defeated. Just throw that in there to give a deep secret that the players can uncover.

There are some other religions too. Evil clerics would exist, followers of powerful demons. In addition there would be wild barbaric tribes who worship the Earth Mother. The civilized humans would harshly persecute these people as heathens. This sets up the PCs to come from one of two cultures, either the civilized or the barbaric. Probably restrict a few classes amoung each as well.

 

[Dinkeldog]

You could have different Orders of priesthood that have different goals and views on how they're carrying out the deity's will. You can also have a set of Orders that are set up along the lines of the deity's primary servants, similar to Katherine Kurtz's Michaeline and Gabrielite Orders in the Deryni series.

Also, the system where deity is in everything, but is reflected back through multiple deities before joinging in as a single godhead is known as pan-polytheism.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Can't resist...

[Begin Hijack]

RE: Hinduism. I'd be very cautious of generalizing. Hinduism is best described as lots of different things going on in India - and, more recently, the Indian diaspora.

My understanding of Brahman is that ultimately, the divine really doesn't have a personality and that in fact, the lack of individuality, passion, and personality is considered the highest good.

That is one viewpoint - in India this path is called Advaita Vedanta. The premise is that the human soul (atman) is identical with divine reality(Brahman). Brahman is nirguna - that is "without qualities." It cannot be categorized in any way, because to say that it "is A" denies the possibility that "it is not A." This is a philosophical device to cause paradox and stimulate insight/mystical apprehension of the truth.

Nirvana, as I understand it, is supposed to be escaping the cycle of illusion and reincarnation and merging with the impassive design--the death of personality if you will.

Nirvana is actually a Buddhist term: the Hindu equivalent is moksha. The understanding of what moksha actually is varies enormously from sect to sect in Hinduism - the definition that you just gave is broadly in accord with the ideas of Advaita.

It is worth noting that Advaita Vedanta is the most widely known Indian philosophy in the West, and many Westerners view it as "Hinduism" in the broader sense.

In fact, Bhakti - devotion to a personal Deity (usually Shiva, Kali or Vishnu) - is much more widespread. Bhakti can be Monotheistic - although often it is Henotheistic.

Henotheism is "One-God-at-a-time-ism" - i.e. today Kali is God, tomorrow Shiva is God, next week Kali is God again, RIGHT NOW Vishnu is God. Etc. etc.

For most practitioners of bhakti, the state of moksha is about 'cleaving to' God - i.e. the individual personality is not submerged or annihilated, but rather magnified. The soul retains its integrity, so to speak.

[End Hijack]

With regards to the original question in this thread, I'd say this.

1) Don't make the truth absolute.
2) Give the Players conflicting hints about the nature of the truth.
3) Make them think that you, the DM, know what the truth is, even though you don't.
4) Allow them to develop a theory, and then, at an inopportune moment, completely upset it.

Paladins, Clerics and Druids make ideal targets for this kind of head.

 

[tleilaxu]

Note to Sep: Check out the power scheme I''ve come up with for MEd20 in Conversions...

 

[Jack Daniel]

Here's how I handle it in my campaign:

-God is clear-cut good-aligned, which means that clerics and rangers must be good in order to cast spells, and paladins must of course be good and lawful. However, in individual cases, the clergy may not even know of God's existence at all (if, for example, they are priests of another good-aligned pantheistic or animalistic religion). This doesn't hinder their ability to use divine power; they're just in for a little surprise in the next life.

-Druids are a special case, drawing power not from the force of nature IMC (In a world with an omnipotent God, forces should be unable to grant divine power of and in themselves because the force would ultimately come from God), but instead from the ideals of natural philosophy and the laws of nature. I reworked druids to be a sort of scholar-priest dedicated to understanding the nature of existence, and their studies teach them spells.

-Other forces that grant supernatural power are luminous ether (wizards), ectoplasm (psions), chi (monks), and angels or demons (good and evil sorcerers).

-Evil clerics and druids are known as warlocks and witches, respectively, and recieve their powers from the devil. Their prime goal: disguise themselves as good clerics and use their powers to infiltrate good religions so they can wreak havoc from positions of power. Hence the mystery: the PCs can never know if that saintly archbishop is actually a warlock lord trying to start an inquisition.