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Monster Damage: What am I missing?

You can also throw Traps into the encounter. Almost every PC i've killed in 4e has been from a trap/monster combo. The worst traps cannot be disabled, hinder the PCs and the monsters are immune. It's like free damage every round, or an action blocker on the PCs. Still, if i was running the tarrasque or bahamut i'd drop their HP by the hundreds and bump up melee damage some.
 

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Although Tiamat is no poser, I do think people are over emphasizing her abilities.

In our game, nearly every PC at 10th level has a way outside of Second Wind to heal him or herself. By 30th level, the number of options will be formidable considering magical items. I also see that the number of resistances that PCs have (even simple cheap potions of resistance) will enable them to also take a ton of damage before they start really feeling it.

Personally, I don't want a 30th level fight to last 20 to 25 rounds with Tiamat due to slow burn.

And remember, at 30th level, several Epic classes nearly refuse to die. They have many abilities to keep themselves alive. Like the OP, I do think that 4E monster damage is on the light side considering the abilities that the PCs bring to the table.
 

Not that surge draining attacks are awfully powerfull. Once a character has not enough surges, he starts to lose his healing surge value in hp for each surged that couldn't be drained.

So once Bahamut's victim are at 0 remaining surges, the "plus two healing surges" becomes "plus half maximum hp"
 

Not that surge draining attacks are awfully powerfull. Once a character has not enough surges, he starts to lose his healing surge value in hp for each surged that couldn't be drained.

So once Bahamut's victim are at 0 remaining surges, the "plus two healing surges" becomes "plus half maximum hp"
No it doesn't. Where did you get the idea that it does?
 

No it doesn't. Where did you get the idea that it does?

There ARE some powers that have that rule built into the power itself. But it's not a general rule. It's a specific effect of a certain power (or weapon? or monster? I can't remember where, but that effect DOES exist somewhere). I think he's getting the general mixed up with the specific.
 

I think the "low damage" is also because of how the combat assumes that even in a fight involving a SOLO, there's actually more than one enemy.

Basically, I think it's an issue of FOCUS FIRE. For example, one DM in our group had the issue with "low damage" so that DM built all monsters with the -50% hp/+33% dmg rule and it seemed to work.

Until ANOTHER DM used it and PCs were dropping left right and center. The big difference? The first DM never did the focus fire thing. Basically, said DM would spread out the damage from the monsters so if there was 7 monsters attacking 6 PCs, at most, 1 character would be subject to 2 monsters.

Conversely, the other DM always tried to gang up on a PC (all dependent on positioning of course) and frankly, PCs started to drop more often.
 

There ARE some powers that have that rule built into the power itself. But it's not a general rule. It's a specific effect of a certain power (or weapon? or monster? I can't remember where, but that effect DOES exist somewhere). I think he's getting the general mixed up with the specific.
IIRC I have seen it in some general answer (not a specific power) about how to deal with a target not having enough surges to pay the drain
 

I have found that in a balanced party, I have to have about three different types of monsters to avoid having the encounter fully in the control of the PCs.

If I ran simpler encounters I could probably get away with adding 50% to the monster damage without the players noticing. (This is at level 8). All the monsters would be hitting the stupid dwarf in fullplate with a bunch of temp hp, second wind and two heals from the bard (healing surge+6+1d6 and 6 temp hp). The Invoker would probably have a field day AoE nuking without any fears... etc...

If you look at the base damage on the monsters they go from around 3 average hits to around 5 average hits to take down a PC. It must be said that higher level monsters have some nice limited expression damage boosts, but in the long run, it just takes more hits to take down a character at level 8 than it did at level 1.

Take the example above, the dwarf needs 5 hits to get down to 0% hp, or say 10 attacks. The healer and second wind increases his hp by about 125%, so that increases the number of needed attacks to about 23. If 5 monsters where attacking him for 5 consecutive rounds, he would go down. This of course never happens. Usually, one monsters dies each round except the first... In addition, he generates temp hp himself so he could probably last 6-7 rounds...

This is with the Normal (High) damage expression from the DMG, page 42, usually only brutes have this high damage or 5 of the damage is ongoing damage.

There are some limited damage expressions (high) that changes this somewhat, but either it's on a recharge power, it's hard to do (skirmish/sneak attack), or the damage is plain blocked by PC abilities (immediate interrupt powers, like the level 3 ranger power that gives the attack a penalty of about 6. - The ranger needs to hit, but he uses his elf re-roll here, so it works about 75-85% of the time depending on the monster, it's usually not used against soldiers, so 85% is probably the right number).

What I am gonna do to get combat more challenging is to make combat less predictable. Instead of running combats with 5 monsters of the characters level, I will start with a ordinary encounter of about level+0 and have some monsters joining the fight about round 3, when the characters usually gains control. I can't do this every fight, but it will increase the tension because the players never know if the encounter DOES turn dangerous, even if it looks like a walk in the park.

I will probably go from avg 4.5 encounters per day to 3 encounters, giving about the same amount of XP, but keeping the players on their toes.

I LOVE the way a DM has so much more control over the dangers of combat in 4E, but I do think I have to re-learn what makes encounters full of tension. ;)

I will NEVER run a Solo monster alone btw, I have done 2-3 single SOLO mob fights and it got SO predictable I nearly fell asleep.

Since then I have tried to run a Solo + 4-5 artillery, but that was overkill again. It basically left two PC's to handle a complete encounter by themselves.... (I cut the extra mob hp in half to fix it...)

The second time I had the solo dragon awaken undead with its breath weapon and it was a lot of fun both for me and the players. New monsters appearing during the fight worked really well. :)
 

But ultimately monsters exist to be defeated. If monsters did massive damage in every hit the game would simply be too swingy, which was always a problem with older editions of D&D where 1 or 2 die rolls going against someone was the end of the day for them.

Monsters exist to be defeated, but only after providing a challenge. Otherwise, the PC's might as well be bashing a piñata. So, it's all about defining what "massive damage" is. Personally, I think that in order for a monster to be considered a real threat, it needs to at least be able to have decent chance of knocking a healing surge's worth of HP out of a defender. Of course, if the party has a lot of healing, even that's nothing.
 

Monsters exist to be defeated, but only after providing a challenge. Otherwise, the PC's might as well be bashing a piñata. So, it's all about defining what "massive damage" is. Personally, I think that in order for a monster to be considered a real threat, it needs to at least be able to have decent chance of knocking a healing surge's worth of HP out of a defender. Of course, if the party has a lot of healing, even that's nothing.

In 4e, Healing Surges ARE hit points, as far as i'm concerned. The fiddly bits matter to characters, but in the slow burn that DMs pay attention to, it is vitally important. Low surges = PC death.
 

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