Monster Damage

[Talysian]

I would like to be able to get it down to where you could have only 1-2 encounters per day and have them challenging. I particularly don't like running dungeon crawls, However I am a firm believer that combat should be Fast, Potentially lethal and fun.. No matter how many per day. I just don't know if that is possible in the 4e design set.

 

[Aegeri]

I would like to be able to get it down to where you could have only 1-2 encounters per day and have them challenging.

You cannot do this because PCs dropping a ton of action points and daily powers will instantly wreck those encounters by high paragon. By epic the effect is so disgusting they'll probably be able to use all their powers in both encounters (due to abilities to get them back) without any issue. The difference now is "attrition" is a genuine factor and you can pull back ELs.

The only way you can make those encounters challenging is with ridiculous metagaming, heavily stacked encounters and driving the EL into the roof. Ultimately this isn't worth it compared with having 4-5 encounters and making those really count. With 1-2 you have two and only two outcomes: A complete TPK because you went overboard or the PCs walk over it without issue due to sheer resources they can throw at it without care. This is why that 4-5 encounter "day" is so important. Even epic PCs cannot consistently daily drop every encounter and get away with it: Eventually something will get them. It might be encounter 3, it could be encounter 4. But a "save all your dailies and drop them" will fail spectacularly and forces them to spread out resources.

This is why epic tier fights are becoming a challenge again.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, you CAN do it in levels 1-15, but it is still pretty swingy. The best advice is to run staged encounters where you go with say 2x normal or 1.5x normal encounter budget but stagger the enemy in every couple rounds or use other similar mechanics so you don't steamroller the party. Then you can adjust on the fly too. Besides, nothing is more fun than the PCs dropping their best encounter powers early on, burning an AP, whaling on the initial set of monsters, and then have a whole other set show up 2 rounds in and make them really dig.

You can also sometimes use other forms of attrition. Create a hostile environment that forces the PCs to make skill checks or burn a surge now and then. Throw in a stress trap that hammers on them a bit in between major encounters.

Even so, I think Aegeri is correct, once you hit around level 16 things start to get to where no one encounter is going to suck up enough resources by itself to do the trick without being lethally stacked. In upper epic basically everything the PCs do should be costing them and expect them to just keep kicking it out.

 

[zoroaster100]

So far I'm enjoying the new greater damage monsters much more than the old, both as DM and player. With the old math many monsters took long to kill yet posed little threat, leading to long boring encounters that early on were obviously going to go for the players.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Just make those monsters of high enough levels...

I have the feeling, a level +4 MV dragon will be quite lethal no matter how many dailies are dropped...

especially with the ability to flee, and attack again 4 min later^^

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Just make those monsters of high enough levels...

Then the PCs won't be able to hit it. It would be frustrating, not fun.

 

[MrMyth]

I would like to be able to get it down to where you could have only 1-2 encounters per day and have them challenging. I particularly don't like running dungeon crawls, However I am a firm believer that combat should be Fast, Potentially lethal and fun.. No matter how many per day. I just don't know if that is possible in the 4e design set.

As others have mentioend, it's a bit hard to do. Some options:

1) Run at levels 1-4. With only one daily power, each PC might have a round of awesome, but aren't going to be able to just completely explode each fight.

2) Adjust the 'recovery/milestone' mechanic. Maybe PCs don't get back daily powers when they rest, but instead only at specific story points. Same for Action Points. Thus, you could have 1-2 fights in a day, but the PCs resources would still be drawn out over 5-6 encounters.

3) Always keep the PCs on their toes. Maybe they usually have 1-2 fights. But occasionally having a bunch of them, or having them ambushed when resting? It doesn't need to be designed to destroy them, of course, but just to remind them not to always burn everything right at the start of the day.

4) Add a cap of only 1 daily power per fight. At later levels, that will mean some powers don't get used each day - instead, they have a variety of options of what they can use during each fight, and need to choose the right tool for the job. It leaves options open, while keeping nova potential down.

5) Or, instead, add some sort of time delay limit on daily powers. You can't use one until the 3rd round of combat, or they must be used two rounds apart, or stuff like that - this prevents them from completely nuking the combat right off the bat, but still means they can start pulling out the stops if things begin to go downhill.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Then the PCs won't be able to hit it. It would be frustrating, not fun.

That is not necessarily the case:

Use brutes of MM3 design!

1. Level +4 brute has Level +0 soldier defenses
2. Very high damage
3. A very good to hit chance

When you look at powers, defense boosting is easier accessible than attack boosting.

So in the end you will have about 50% hit chances on both sides.
My last encounter i dropped on my players was frustrating for me.

I used 3 brutes of level 4 against 4 PCs of level 2, with no preparation on both sides. Their alpha strike knocked out the bard, but they were smashed easily with the use of some dailies.

Note, that it was an even level encounter, but each individual was higher level and the rogue missed them only with a natural 1. So i guess using a brute of level +4 would have been perfectly ok.

(Note that brutes are often those monsters which you could imagine walking around on its own or small groups, like ogres, or a single ogre between some orcs.)

It was the MM1 monsters where you could not make a single challenging encounter because defenses were higher, because you had to use monsters of higher level a threatening challenge.

As i said earlier: the 3.5 mentality of an equal level encounter draining only 20% of the resources combined with high hp, low damage monsters was the cause of the gind.

With Level -1 combats already quite dangerous you can easily make combats that drain a lot of dailies without resulting in a grind.

(at least in theorie... I would at least give MM3 or MV a shot)

Edit: two elite brutes of level +4 should make a good challenge. Chose two that make more area attacks instead of double attacks or don´t focus on a single PC

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Two general comments:

1. A level - 2 encounter can result in a character death, and a level + 4 encounter can be a cakewalk. Much depends on the accuracy of the estimate of the encounter's level -- that "level - 2" might properly be considered "level + 1" if the party's capabilities relative to the full context of the combat were taken into account, e.g. one defender has no remaining surges, the ranged striker is out of daily powers, the terrain is a challenge to the party's movement options, etc. And while statistics will usually rule the day, a monster or character with a significantly powerful critical hit capability can turn a combat upside down by rolling a few 20s.

2. While it might seem obvious that the thing to do when a party is breezing through encounters without breaking a sweat is to increase the difficulty of the encounters, the players may not see it the same way. The players may not feel that the encounters are so easy, or they might just prefer easy encounters. You're the DM, so you can handle it however you like, but don't just assume that the players agree with your assessment.