Monster ECLs: Earth Mephit

[byxbee]

I am creating a new PC for the game i play in, and wanted to do something different.

What's the ECL for an Earth Mephit? The CR is 3 and PCGen lists it as 3, but i want to make sure.

I'm looking at a Earth Mephit (3?)/Fighter 2

Any tips for a flying, fast healing, damage resistant damage dealer?

Thanks in advance,

Drkrak-Brgk "Dirt"

 

[RogueJK]

According to Soldarin's ECL Calculator, a Mephit is ECL +7.

I think that is pretty reasonable. After all, they have to be at least ECL +3 from Hit Dice alone... an additional +4 for all of their other abilites sounds about right.

 

[byxbee]

Thanks!

I thought an ECL 3 was pretty light!

Scratch this guy from the game for at least 5 more levels!!

thanks Rogue!

 

[Kichwas]

I'd say ECL 7 is too high.

Let's see what Dragon says:

Page 55 of Dragon 293 lists it as ECL 6.

Still high, but not the same as the unofficial fan-made source.

 

[PenguinKing]

I think that is pretty reasonable. After all, they have to be at least ECL +3 from Hit Dice alone...

True in this case, yes - Outsider Hit Dice pretty much rock your world. However, not all HD are created equal; f'rex, I once compared feats, skills, HP, BAB, etc. and determined that without some impressive racial abilities to bolster them, plain-vanilla Medium-size Humanoid-type HD are worth slightly less than an equivalent number of levels in any class except Commoner - and that includes NPC classes.

(On the flip side, Dragon-type HD actually come out worth slightly more than PC class levels, even if you figure in the lack of attendant class abilities.)

- Sir Bob.

 

[RogueJK]

Minimum ECL from Hit Dice isn't based on how much the Hit Dice are "worth". A creature with any 3 hit dice has to be at least +3 ECL. Similarly, a creature with 12 hit dice must be at least +12 ECL.

The only time that this changes is if the creature has 1 Hit Dice listed in their monster entry, in which case that HD is converted to a class-based HD when they take a level in a character class. This is why creatures such as Goblins, Kobolds, Dwarves, and Halflings can be +0 ECL, and yet be listed as having 1 HD. That 1 HD is actually from a class, generally Warrior, since it's not possible to have a "0th level" creature. For example, the Elf entry in the MM (1 HD) is actually for a 1st level Elf Warrior, while the Ettin entry (10 HD) is for an Ettin with no class levels.

 

[dcollins]

Minimum ECL from Hit Dice isn't based on how much the Hit Dice are "worth". A creature with any 3 hit dice has to be at least +3 ECL. Similarly, a creature with 12 hit dice must be at least +12 ECL.

I simply don't agree with this, and a lot of other people don't, either -- notwithstanding that one of the designers of that Dragon article asserted the same thing.

One hit die is not necessarily balanced against the bundle of advantages acquired from one class level.

 

[PenguinKing]

Minimum ECL from Hit Dice isn't based on how much the Hit Dice are "worth". A creature with any 3 hit dice has to be at least +3 ECL. Similarly, a creature with 12 hit dice must be at least +12 ECL.

Ignoring for the moment that this "rule" is rather arbitrary in nature, you misinterpret me anyway. What I'm saying is that a 4 HD creature is not necessarily "as good" as a level 4 PC purely on the basis of its HD, and better on the basis of its special abilities. In short, saying that "ECL = HD + special abilities" is in many cases not the most effective way of doing things. Sometimes, a creature's special abilities are sufficient to make it more powerful than a standard PC race with an equivalent number of character levels, and in this case, yes, it should have an ECL higher than its HD. However, sometimes, a creature's racial abilities don't even make up for the shortfall that arises from the fact that its HD, in and of themselves, are not "worth" as much as class levels. In this case, its ECL certainly should not be "HD + special abilities"; anything higher than straight ECL = HD would yield a vastly inflated result.

After all, if we are to accept that ECL = HD + special abilities, a human should be at least ECL +1 - its bonus feat and skill points are certainly "worth" a class level, yes?

- Sir Bob.

 

[RogueJK]

After all, if we are to accept that ECL = HD + special abilities, a human should be at least ECL +1 - its bonus feat and skill points are certainly "worth" a class level, yes?

Not necessarily. Every race should have some "free" (i.e. no increase to ECL) abilities, modeled after the core races. This would generally include some ability scored bonuses balanced by drawbacks, as well as some good, but not overly good, racial abilites, such as skill bonuses and such.

The humans give up all of that for a free feat and an extra skill point per level, thus they remain at ECL +0. However, a while back Soldarin ran the core races through his ECL calculator, and found that most of them are much closer to ECL +1 than ECL +0. In fact, one (Gnomes or Elves, IIRC) was even over ECL +1.

As such, it is entirely possible to have a 3 HD creature be only +3 ECL. Their extra abilities might not warrant raising the ECL. However, once you get into the middle-to-higher CR monsters, the likelyhood of that happening is pretty slim. Tougher creatures have better racial abilites, and 99% of the time, they make up for their lack of class abilities.

Of course, calculating monster ECLs is still an art, not a science. That's the reason that many people don't allow monster characters to begin with. But so far, the "ECL must be greater than or equal to HD" rule is the only clear one that we've been given, so I'm sticking by it for now.

 

[thundershot]

The ECL for awakened animals is lower than the hit dice... (which is minimum 3)



Chris