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Monster ECLs, Part 2 (was "Lizardfolk = 4?!?")
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<blockquote data-quote="Mal Malenkirk" data-source="post: 62694" data-attributes="member: 834"><p>Thursday I will get to try Ghorgor, my 3rd level fighter ogre.</p><p></p><p>He'll be helping my 11th level party.</p><p></p><p>Here are his statitics, thursday night I'll tell you if he held up his own.</p><p></p><p><em>Disclaimer 1</em>:</p><p></p><p>I must tell you that in my campaign, PC gain a bonus attribute point every 2 level instead of every 4. I don't care to discuss what you think of this houserule here, but this causes a problem; under normal rules, Ghorgor would only be trailing the PCs by 2 bonus attribute points, not 4.</p><p></p><p>Therefore I gave Ghorgor 3 bonus attribute points. That way, he is 2 bonus points behind the PCs, <em>as he would under normal rules.</em></p><p></p><p><em>Disclaimer 2</em>: </p><p></p><p>I gave Ghorgor equipment that was roughly on par with the poorest PC in my current game. When I'll describe his equipment, please remember that IMC the rogue has a ring of blinking (30,000 GP) and the psychic warrior has a shield with a +8 enchantment value (64,000 GP)! (these were lucky breaks when we randomly generated a few items)</p><p></p><p><em>Disclaimer 3</em>: I don't roll for HP. I round up in the same manner as the character generator. i.e. 1D10 gives 6 HP. Everyone from the PCs to the monsters get this treatment.</p><p></p><p><em>Disclaimer 4</em>: I'll roleplay him but the the players will control him in combat.</p><p></p><p><em>Disclaimer 5</em>: I only used core rules when designing him. No splatbook feats.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Ghorgor</strong></p><p></p><p>Ghorgor was the champion and protector of a tribe of ogres. Recently, most of the tribe was captured or killed by an army of living machine (Half-Construct template from the latest dungeon magazine). Now Ghorgor will join forces with the PCs to save what is left of his tribe from a demented gnome scientist.</p><p></p><p>Ghorgor is very shy and laid back. He wasn't the leader of the tribe, just its champion. He feels lost without his chieftain or his shaman. He is very easy to influence because of his lack of assertiveness (think Half-giant from darksun) but he has a strong sense of duty and the one thing he is certain of is that he must save his tribe. On this, he will not change his mind.</p><p></p><p>He is surprisingly gentle and intelligent, he likes painting pretty flowers and animals on cavern walls. He also like dancing. After each great battle he performs an interpretative dance where each figure represent a powerful monster he defeated, from the first the lates.</p><p></p><p>He is a sensitive, artistic soul. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p>(built with 32 points. *indicate a bonus attribute points, [X]indicate an enhancement bonus)</p><p></p><p></p><p>STR 28 ** [30]</p><p>DEX 10</p><p>CON 20 * [22]</p><p>WIS 12</p><p>INT 10</p><p>CHA 4</p><p></p><p>HP 83/83 (4D8+ 3D10+ 42)*</p><p></p><p>AC 24 (Touch 10, flatfooted 24), Movement 30</p><p></p><p><em>Skills</em> (21) </p><p></p><p>8 from Ogre, 6 from fighter (I suspect Teeth&Claw rules will allow X4 at first level, but for purpose of the test run I'll give only 6 skill points)</p><p></p><p>Rank (modified)</p><p></p><p>Listen +4 (5)</p><p>Spot +4 (5)</p><p>Climb +2 (12)</p><p>Craft (painting) +4 (4) </p><p></p><p>You'll notice that Ghorgor can really paint! You'll also notice that he can't really dance. Eh, I said he liked it, not that he was good at it! Imagine Ghorgor running in circle and flapping his arms to represent his glorious victory against a roc! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></p><p></p><p><em>Feats</em>:</p><p></p><p>Weapon focus (greataxe)</p><p>Power attack</p><p>Cleave</p><p>Improved bullrush</p><p>Sunder</p><p></p><p>Melee: +15 (6 BAB, +10 STR, -1 size)</p><p>With Guillotine: +18 </p><p>Damage with Guillotine: 2D8+17</p><p></p><p>Ranged: Who cares? All right, should he throw a rock he'll do it at +5.</p><p></p><p><em>Saves</em> (+1 from cloak of resistance factored in):</p><p></p><p>Fortitude: +14</p><p>Reflex: +3 </p><p>Will: +4</p><p></p><p><em>Equipment</em>:</p><p></p><p>A huge great axe +2 called "Guillotine". (It <em>is</em> crafted from the blade of a guillotine)</p><p>A half plate +2 (crafted from Ankheg shells)</p><p>The necklace of the champion, +2 enhancement to STR and CON (crafted from a gear chain stolen from a gnome machine)</p><p>A huge stone halberd (looks like an enormous tomahawk)</p><p>A ring of protection +1 </p><p>A cloak of resistance +1 </p><p>Potion of cure serious wounds X2, potion of endure element (fire) X2.</p><p>-----------------------------------------------------------</p><p></p><p>Spotted any error? Let me know before thursday!</p><p></p><p>What do I expect?</p><p></p><p>His attack bonus and AC are competive. His Damage are excellent. His HP are relatively low.</p><p></p><p>He'll use his reach for all it's worth. He'll do a lot of the tactics that rely on opposed strenght check and grants a +4 for being large. </p><p></p><p>He'll disarm people a lot. Yeah, he doesn't have improved disarm. But against a medium opponent without reach he can perform the disarm maneuver while they are out of reach! And against a M weapon he'll gain +8 to disarm. Don't see this as a finesse disarm. He's simply striking so hard on the weapon that it's knocked out of the hand of its bearer.</p><p></p><p>He'll sunder a lot, too. Not many weapon can stand 2D8+17.</p><p> </p><p>When he's using his huge halberd, he'll want to trip all opponents who provoke an AoO by moving through is 15 feet reach. Those who fall prone will lose their actions and be fair game for the rest of the party.</p><p></p><p>All these tactics have the advantage of using his great strenght while preventing the opponents from attacking his <em>relatively</em> low HP. </p><p></p><p>Note that it is very hard to Sunder Ghorgor's weapon. You would need a L weapon, at least. A M weapon can't be used to sunder a H one. And Ghorgor's H great axe has a lot of HP. An ogre's club has 60 HP, a huge great axe probably has 30-40, perhaps even 50 if we follow the progression from M axe to L axe (2 to 10).</p><p></p><p>He's also very hard to disarm by a M opponent. </p><p></p><p>It's therefore very hard to take away his advantages.</p><p></p><p>Also, he can charge and make a Bullrush check at +16 without suffering an AoO! Next session is in a mountain area...</p><p></p><p>--------------------------------</p><p></p><p>Will he hold his own in an 11th level party? That's what we'll discover on thursday.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mal Malenkirk, post: 62694, member: 834"] Thursday I will get to try Ghorgor, my 3rd level fighter ogre. He'll be helping my 11th level party. Here are his statitics, thursday night I'll tell you if he held up his own. [i]Disclaimer 1[/i]: I must tell you that in my campaign, PC gain a bonus attribute point every 2 level instead of every 4. I don't care to discuss what you think of this houserule here, but this causes a problem; under normal rules, Ghorgor would only be trailing the PCs by 2 bonus attribute points, not 4. Therefore I gave Ghorgor 3 bonus attribute points. That way, he is 2 bonus points behind the PCs, [i]as he would under normal rules.[/i] [i]Disclaimer 2[/i]: I gave Ghorgor equipment that was roughly on par with the poorest PC in my current game. When I'll describe his equipment, please remember that IMC the rogue has a ring of blinking (30,000 GP) and the psychic warrior has a shield with a +8 enchantment value (64,000 GP)! (these were lucky breaks when we randomly generated a few items) [i]Disclaimer 3[/i]: I don't roll for HP. I round up in the same manner as the character generator. i.e. 1D10 gives 6 HP. Everyone from the PCs to the monsters get this treatment. [i]Disclaimer 4[/i]: I'll roleplay him but the the players will control him in combat. [i]Disclaimer 5[/i]: I only used core rules when designing him. No splatbook feats. [b]Ghorgor[/b] Ghorgor was the champion and protector of a tribe of ogres. Recently, most of the tribe was captured or killed by an army of living machine (Half-Construct template from the latest dungeon magazine). Now Ghorgor will join forces with the PCs to save what is left of his tribe from a demented gnome scientist. Ghorgor is very shy and laid back. He wasn't the leader of the tribe, just its champion. He feels lost without his chieftain or his shaman. He is very easy to influence because of his lack of assertiveness (think Half-giant from darksun) but he has a strong sense of duty and the one thing he is certain of is that he must save his tribe. On this, he will not change his mind. He is surprisingly gentle and intelligent, he likes painting pretty flowers and animals on cavern walls. He also like dancing. After each great battle he performs an interpretative dance where each figure represent a powerful monster he defeated, from the first the lates. He is a sensitive, artistic soul. ;) (built with 32 points. *indicate a bonus attribute points, [X]indicate an enhancement bonus) STR 28 ** [30] DEX 10 CON 20 * [22] WIS 12 INT 10 CHA 4 HP 83/83 (4D8+ 3D10+ 42)* AC 24 (Touch 10, flatfooted 24), Movement 30 [i]Skills[/i] (21) 8 from Ogre, 6 from fighter (I suspect Teeth&Claw rules will allow X4 at first level, but for purpose of the test run I'll give only 6 skill points) Rank (modified) Listen +4 (5) Spot +4 (5) Climb +2 (12) Craft (painting) +4 (4) You'll notice that Ghorgor can really paint! You'll also notice that he can't really dance. Eh, I said he liked it, not that he was good at it! Imagine Ghorgor running in circle and flapping his arms to represent his glorious victory against a roc! :D [i]Feats[/i]: Weapon focus (greataxe) Power attack Cleave Improved bullrush Sunder Melee: +15 (6 BAB, +10 STR, -1 size) With Guillotine: +18 Damage with Guillotine: 2D8+17 Ranged: Who cares? All right, should he throw a rock he'll do it at +5. [i]Saves[/i] (+1 from cloak of resistance factored in): Fortitude: +14 Reflex: +3 Will: +4 [i]Equipment[/i]: A huge great axe +2 called "Guillotine". (It [i]is[/i] crafted from the blade of a guillotine) A half plate +2 (crafted from Ankheg shells) The necklace of the champion, +2 enhancement to STR and CON (crafted from a gear chain stolen from a gnome machine) A huge stone halberd (looks like an enormous tomahawk) A ring of protection +1 A cloak of resistance +1 Potion of cure serious wounds X2, potion of endure element (fire) X2. ----------------------------------------------------------- Spotted any error? Let me know before thursday! What do I expect? His attack bonus and AC are competive. His Damage are excellent. His HP are relatively low. He'll use his reach for all it's worth. He'll do a lot of the tactics that rely on opposed strenght check and grants a +4 for being large. He'll disarm people a lot. Yeah, he doesn't have improved disarm. But against a medium opponent without reach he can perform the disarm maneuver while they are out of reach! And against a M weapon he'll gain +8 to disarm. Don't see this as a finesse disarm. He's simply striking so hard on the weapon that it's knocked out of the hand of its bearer. He'll sunder a lot, too. Not many weapon can stand 2D8+17. When he's using his huge halberd, he'll want to trip all opponents who provoke an AoO by moving through is 15 feet reach. Those who fall prone will lose their actions and be fair game for the rest of the party. All these tactics have the advantage of using his great strenght while preventing the opponents from attacking his [i]relatively[/i] low HP. Note that it is very hard to Sunder Ghorgor's weapon. You would need a L weapon, at least. A M weapon can't be used to sunder a H one. And Ghorgor's H great axe has a lot of HP. An ogre's club has 60 HP, a huge great axe probably has 30-40, perhaps even 50 if we follow the progression from M axe to L axe (2 to 10). He's also very hard to disarm by a M opponent. It's therefore very hard to take away his advantages. Also, he can charge and make a Bullrush check at +16 without suffering an AoO! Next session is in a mountain area... -------------------------------- Will he hold his own in an 11th level party? That's what we'll discover on thursday. [/QUOTE]
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