Monster ECLs, Part 2 (was "Lizardfolk = 4?!?")

Wolfspider

Explorer
Piratecat closed the other thread due to excessive posts, but I thought that this discussion still had a few miles in it.

I for one would like to know what you guys think of the ECL numbers for none humaniod creatures, like wolves and giant eagles and horses, both the normal and awakened variaties. (In my Middle Earth D20 conversion, I'm thinking of making it an option for players to create such animal characters, since there is a precident in the Silmarillion.)

So, what do you think?

Of course, feel free to carry on with previous discussions as well....
 

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Archer

First Post
I think the ECL for the animals I checked are dead on.

I've already covered the cat in the other thread. I figure dog would be the same except lean more towards the fighting classes.

Heavy War Horse at ECL 6 is accurate. You get good (great?) stat bonuses, 6d8 hp, decent natural attack, large without reach, 4 legs (extra carrying and stability vs trip), decent saves, decent HP. AFAIK you'd have 9 ranks in spot and listen and go from there. It would be like roleplaying the paladin's warhorse. You would work together with your rider taking riding feats. I wonder if the horse could take trample instead of the rider as a feat.

Would you prefer to be a horse or a centaur though?

Wolf gets the knockdown feat (worth 3 feats) without the damage requirement.

Apes and monkeys would be the same as a simian PC race like in Oriental Adventures.

Awakened animals function better as PC races than monsters with crazy abilites and immunities because its much easier to gauge their power and relative strengths vs. conventional characters. IMHO
 
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Marshall

First Post
Archer said:
Heavy War Horse at ECL 6 is accurate. You get good (great?) stat bonuses, 6d8 hp, decent natural attack, large without reach, 4 legs (extra carrying and stability vs trip), decent saves, decent HP. AFAIK you'd have 9 ranks in spot and listen and go from there. It would be like roleplaying the paladin's warhorse. You would work together with your rider taking riding feats. I wonder if the horse could take trample instead of the rider as a feat.

Would you prefer to be a horse or a centaur though?

Centaur, all the way. As an awakened animal you would still be an NPC, forget about social interaction(unless your playing an Animal Farm game), you have no hands, so as a spellcasting class youre at least 2 additional levels behind, very few magical items will function for you, various skills are just right out, mostly the ECL will depend on what kind of stat boni they give them, countered by a weak INT(3d6 vs 4d6 drop lowest), subpar CHA, tho they gave a WIZ bonus to make up for a lack of skills.


Wolf gets the knockdown feat (worth 3 feats) without the damage requirement.

Apes and monkeys would be the same as a simian PC race like in Oriental Adventures.

Awakened animals function better as PC races than monsters with crazy abilites and immunities because its much easier to gauge their power and relative strengths vs. conventional characters. IMHO

I'd buy that except for the funky stuff that Awaken itself does.
 
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Mal Malenkirk

First Post
Thursday I will get to try Ghorgor, my 3rd level fighter ogre.

He'll be helping my 11th level party.

Here are his statitics, thursday night I'll tell you if he held up his own.

Disclaimer 1:

I must tell you that in my campaign, PC gain a bonus attribute point every 2 level instead of every 4. I don't care to discuss what you think of this houserule here, but this causes a problem; under normal rules, Ghorgor would only be trailing the PCs by 2 bonus attribute points, not 4.

Therefore I gave Ghorgor 3 bonus attribute points. That way, he is 2 bonus points behind the PCs, as he would under normal rules.

Disclaimer 2:

I gave Ghorgor equipment that was roughly on par with the poorest PC in my current game. When I'll describe his equipment, please remember that IMC the rogue has a ring of blinking (30,000 GP) and the psychic warrior has a shield with a +8 enchantment value (64,000 GP)! (these were lucky breaks when we randomly generated a few items)

Disclaimer 3: I don't roll for HP. I round up in the same manner as the character generator. i.e. 1D10 gives 6 HP. Everyone from the PCs to the monsters get this treatment.

Disclaimer 4: I'll roleplay him but the the players will control him in combat.

Disclaimer 5: I only used core rules when designing him. No splatbook feats.


Ghorgor

Ghorgor was the champion and protector of a tribe of ogres. Recently, most of the tribe was captured or killed by an army of living machine (Half-Construct template from the latest dungeon magazine). Now Ghorgor will join forces with the PCs to save what is left of his tribe from a demented gnome scientist.

Ghorgor is very shy and laid back. He wasn't the leader of the tribe, just its champion. He feels lost without his chieftain or his shaman. He is very easy to influence because of his lack of assertiveness (think Half-giant from darksun) but he has a strong sense of duty and the one thing he is certain of is that he must save his tribe. On this, he will not change his mind.

He is surprisingly gentle and intelligent, he likes painting pretty flowers and animals on cavern walls. He also like dancing. After each great battle he performs an interpretative dance where each figure represent a powerful monster he defeated, from the first the lates.

He is a sensitive, artistic soul. ;)

(built with 32 points. *indicate a bonus attribute points, [X]indicate an enhancement bonus)


STR 28 ** [30]
DEX 10
CON 20 * [22]
WIS 12
INT 10
CHA 4

HP 83/83 (4D8+ 3D10+ 42)*

AC 24 (Touch 10, flatfooted 24), Movement 30

Skills (21)

8 from Ogre, 6 from fighter (I suspect Teeth&Claw rules will allow X4 at first level, but for purpose of the test run I'll give only 6 skill points)

Rank (modified)

Listen +4 (5)
Spot +4 (5)
Climb +2 (12)
Craft (painting) +4 (4)

You'll notice that Ghorgor can really paint! You'll also notice that he can't really dance. Eh, I said he liked it, not that he was good at it! Imagine Ghorgor running in circle and flapping his arms to represent his glorious victory against a roc! :D

Feats:

Weapon focus (greataxe)
Power attack
Cleave
Improved bullrush
Sunder

Melee: +15 (6 BAB, +10 STR, -1 size)
With Guillotine: +18
Damage with Guillotine: 2D8+17

Ranged: Who cares? All right, should he throw a rock he'll do it at +5.

Saves (+1 from cloak of resistance factored in):

Fortitude: +14
Reflex: +3
Will: +4

Equipment:

A huge great axe +2 called "Guillotine". (It is crafted from the blade of a guillotine)
A half plate +2 (crafted from Ankheg shells)
The necklace of the champion, +2 enhancement to STR and CON (crafted from a gear chain stolen from a gnome machine)
A huge stone halberd (looks like an enormous tomahawk)
A ring of protection +1
A cloak of resistance +1
Potion of cure serious wounds X2, potion of endure element (fire) X2.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Spotted any error? Let me know before thursday!

What do I expect?

His attack bonus and AC are competive. His Damage are excellent. His HP are relatively low.

He'll use his reach for all it's worth. He'll do a lot of the tactics that rely on opposed strenght check and grants a +4 for being large.

He'll disarm people a lot. Yeah, he doesn't have improved disarm. But against a medium opponent without reach he can perform the disarm maneuver while they are out of reach! And against a M weapon he'll gain +8 to disarm. Don't see this as a finesse disarm. He's simply striking so hard on the weapon that it's knocked out of the hand of its bearer.

He'll sunder a lot, too. Not many weapon can stand 2D8+17.

When he's using his huge halberd, he'll want to trip all opponents who provoke an AoO by moving through is 15 feet reach. Those who fall prone will lose their actions and be fair game for the rest of the party.

All these tactics have the advantage of using his great strenght while preventing the opponents from attacking his relatively low HP.

Note that it is very hard to Sunder Ghorgor's weapon. You would need a L weapon, at least. A M weapon can't be used to sunder a H one. And Ghorgor's H great axe has a lot of HP. An ogre's club has 60 HP, a huge great axe probably has 30-40, perhaps even 50 if we follow the progression from M axe to L axe (2 to 10).

He's also very hard to disarm by a M opponent.

It's therefore very hard to take away his advantages.

Also, he can charge and make a Bullrush check at +16 without suffering an AoO! Next session is in a mountain area...

--------------------------------

Will he hold his own in an 11th level party? That's what we'll discover on thursday.
 
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Alejandro

First Post
I agree with everyone who thinks that the Dragon article is a bit too conservative, and think that the ECLs should drop by 1 across the board if below ECL 6, drop by 2 if below ECL 12, and drop by 3 if below ECL 20.

I hope you're all planning to write and voice your opinions, instead of spouting off here and on other message boards.
 

Wolfspider

Explorer
Ghorgor....

Sounds like a fun character! I look forward to hearing about his exploits. :D

I hope you're all planning to write and voice your opinions, instead of spouting off here and on other message boards.

Good point! I've already sent my email to Dragon. I encourage everyone to send their input as well. They asked for it; they should get it! :D
 

Mal Malenkirk

First Post
Alejandro said:
I hope you're all planning to write and voice your opinions, instead of spouting off here and on other message boards.

And I hope we are all willing to give it a try before going on a crusade.

The designers playtested before attributing ECL, we owe it to them to playtest too before harassing them with e-mail.
 

drnuncheon

Explorer
Marshall said:

you have no hands, so as a spellcasting class youre at least 2 additional levels behind

I would think that for an Awakened animal, other bodily gestures would substitute for the finger and arm motions that are required for spellcasting in humans.

After all, you're not penalizing them in melee combat because they're biting instead of swinging a sword, why penalize them in spellcasting?

Admittedly, it would be a lot more difficult to learn from a normal wizard, but an Awakened animal sorcerer, for example, should be just fine.

(Although amusingly, their spells would not function if they assumed a human shape. "Let's see...twitch whiskers, wag tail...damn!")

J
 

Someguy

First Post
In MotW IIRC there is a feat which let's you cast spells while in animal form, which wasn't possible. However, i think i would let a PC who was born and then awakened the ability to cast spells with a flick of thier tails and a few squeaks. ;)
 

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