Monster ECLs, Part 2 (was "Lizardfolk = 4?!?")

[Archer]

I guess tiny animals start out at ECL 3 base but they have so many penalites that brings their ECL down to 0. They don't have any of the benefits that would raise ECL. They have a reach of 0 and no hands for somatic components so they have trouble with both combat and spell casting. I don't know if 3 extra HD even balance out the penalties considering how many HP they lose from con penalites.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I guess tiny animals start out at ECL 3 base but they have so many penalites that brings their ECL down to 0. They don't have any of the benefits that would raise ECL. They have a reach of 0 and no hands for somatic components so they have trouble with both combat and spell casting. I don't know if 3 extra HD even balance out the penalties considering how many HP they lose from con penalites.

Tiny animals' Constitution scores:
Badger: 15
Cat: 10
Hawk: 10
Lizard: 10
Monkey: 10
Owl: 10
Rat: 10
Raven: 10
Tiny viper: 11
Weasel: 10

What were you saying about Con penalties again?

 

[dcollins]

What were you saying about Con penalties again?

Indeed, apparently the designers scrupulously avoided giving any monster or animal in the MM a Constitution below 10, ever. It's pretty odd in a lot of cases when they have to resort to diminishing fractions of a Hit Die (like 1/2 or 1/4 or 1/8 or less), because they're unwilling to use the Con-penalty mechanic. (And this rule is further confirmed by Skip Williams' "How to Create a Monster" article which shows the same thing in every case.)

Apparently, Elves are the only creatures in the universe with a natural Constitution penalty.

You can read more on this subject here: www.superdan.net/dndmisc/fractional_hit_dice.html

 

[CRGreathouse]

From your site:

For example, kobolds as written have 1st-level Warriors actually tougher than 1st-level human or orcish Warriors; since the kobold base monster is not a 1st-level Warrior (per MM p. 124), a 1st-level kobold Warrior's HD is actually 1-1/2 d8, for an average of 6 hp (and this discrepancy is retained for all higher levels of Warrior and Fighter, as well).

One of the designers said that kobolds lost their racial Hit Die when they advanced in some class. I thought that this was unusual, so I looked it up, and it appears that this is correct according to the DMG (page 24, top). What do you think of this?

 

[Ysgarran]

He gets 8 skill points from being an ogre (6 + 1/EHD + Int mod, as a Large creature a 4 HD ogre has 2 EHD) and 6 from his fighter levels (monsters with class levels don't get the extra skill points that normal 1st level characters do).

Where is the chart for the 'expected' hit dice for a large creature? From your calculation it seems that the expected hit dice for a large creature is 2 HD.

Thanks,
Ysgarran.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

P.11 of the MM.

The * under the list of monster type.

 

[drnuncheon]

Indeed, apparently the designers scrupulously avoided giving any monster or animal in the MM a Constitution below 10, ever. It's pretty odd in a lot of cases when they have to resort to diminishing fractions of a Hit Die (like 1/2 or 1/4 or 1/8 or less), because they're unwilling to use the Con-penalty mechanic.

Using the Con penalty mechanic results in other, probably unwanted, side effects - hit points are not the only thing that Con affects! An animal with a Con penalty will have a lower Fort save and be more susceptible to diseases and poisons.

J

 

[Number47]

Just another pointer. A creature with 10' reach using a reach weapon threatens squares 15' and 20' away, but not 10' and 5' unless he uses a spiked chain.

As for the animals side-topic, a lower con not only leads to lower hit points and fort save, but those animals would have worse concetration checks!