Monster Math Old and New

[Jan van Leyden]

In another thread re the Online Monster Builder, OnlineDM made the following statement:

I don't believe Wizards of the Coast has ever said anything about "fixing" old monsters that use pre-MM3 math. Those monsters might not be much fun to use as-is, and I encourage most DMs to either not use them or to heavily modify them.

Not owning MM3 myself I find myself at a loss as to what the math-changes actually are. Is their any explanation of the new concepts in MM3? If not, can someone give me comparable monsters, old and new, which show the difference? Am I correct assuming that mathed-up monsters have a higher damage output for the same XP budget?

And a tangential question concerning MM3: does this book focus on Dark Sun as I assume?

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

You will find the changes to monsters on Page 40 of THIS document.

No Monster Manual 3 does not focus on Darksun. That is what the Darksun creature catalog is for.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Not owning MM3 myself I find myself at a loss as to what the math-changes actually are. Is their any explanation of the new concepts in MM3? If not, can someone give me comparable monsters, old and new, which show the difference? Am I correct assuming that mathed-up monsters have a higher damage output for the same XP budget?

Simply, the damage is up, hit points are down, the monster stat block is rearranged and solos are a lot better at fighting 4-5 characters at the same time. When MM3 came out there were some preview monsters, take a look. MV and MV:Nentir are the same so those previews are good also.

And a tangential question concerning MM3: does this book focus on Dark Sun as I assume?

No, not at all. The Dark Sun Creature Catalog is Dark Sun stuff.

The newer monster books are really worth the money.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Simply, the damage is up, hit points are down...

To clarify: hit points are the same for standard monsters, but due to higher damage, you usually can challenge PC´s with monsters of 1-2 levels per tier lower than before. So as a result, to hit, AC and HP drop by quite a bit. And a PC, even if he is hit fewer times, hits usually are noticed and threatening.

This is especially true for monsters that do typed damage which can easily be resisted.

Also debilating status effects on players happen less frequent, while monsters are more easily hit by them, which increases the reliability of controllers (which nowadays usually have powers that control or do damage even on a miss, or a power to turn a miss into a hit)

 

[Dausuul]

Just as a handy reference, this is a list of all monster-containing products I am aware of that were released*, or are scheduled for release, after Monster Manual 3:

• Book of Vile Darkness (release date 12/20/2011)
• Dark Sun Campaign Setting
• Dark Sun Creature Catalog
• Demonomicon
• Monster Manual 3
• Monster Vault
• Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale (release date 6/21/2011)
• Neverwinter Campaign Setting (release date 8/16/2011)
• The Shadowfell (release date 5/17/2011)
• Vor Rukoth
• Dragon issue 389+
• Dungeon issue 180+

Since the Compendium doesn't distinguish between pre-MM3 wussy monsters and post-MM3 awesome monsters**, you may find this useful when picking monsters to use in adventures or as templates, particularly at higher levels. Greyed-out entries are for things that haven't been released yet, but look like they'll have monsters in them.

[size=-2]*I'm just going off release date here. If anyone knows of stuff released before MM3 that uses the new math, or stuff released after MM3 that uses the old math, let me know and I'll update the list.
**Hey, WotC, what are the chances of getting a "new math" filter so we can hide all pre-MM3 monsters in the Compendium and Adventure Tools?[/size]

 

[Aegeri]

Tomb of Horrors has a mix of MM3 and MM1 creatures. It can be most frustrating. Actually many of Wizards adventures can use unmodified pre-MM3 creatures. Though at heroic tier in some cases this isn't a huge issue - but you can certainly notice the difference in the paragon level + Tomb of Horrors.

 

[Dausuul]

Tomb of Horrors has a mix of MM3 and MM1 creatures. It can be most frustrating. Actually many of Wizards adventures can use unmodified pre-MM3 creatures. Though at heroic tier in some cases this isn't a huge issue - but you can certainly notice the difference in the paragon level + Tomb of Horrors.

So I should take Vor Rukoth and Marauders of the Dune Sea off that list, then?

 

[Aegeri]

Vor Rukoth only has a handful of new creatures, but they are all definitely MM3+ (the solo in particular is a weird one - more of an environmental hazard than a creature). I haven't read Marauders of the Dune sea closely, but it's 90% Dark Sun stuff (I think there is the odd thing not from Dark Sun in it). Tomb of Horrors and I think the DMs kit may use monsters from older sources. Only the Tomb of Horrors really mixes a lot of stuff pre-MM3 and suffers for it, because those monsters just don't cope well.

Actually I will check Marauders and yes, there is a fair amount of stuff in there from pre-MM3 sources. Not that it would be much of a worry in the end though as most of it is still from the up to date MM3+ design and again, it's a heroic adventure.

 

[TerraDave]

actually, I think there was a thread floating around on the change, that is how much damage was up, ect, to help in adjusting existing monsters.

Sure would be handy if we could find that again.

 

[Dausuul]

Vor Rukoth only has a handful of new creatures, but they are all definitely MM3+ (the solo in particular is a weird one - more of an environmental hazard than a creature). I haven't read Marauders of the Dune sea closely, but it's 90% Dark Sun stuff (I think there is the odd thing not from Dark Sun in it). Tomb of Horrors and I think the DMs kit may use monsters from older sources. Only the Tomb of Horrors really mixes a lot of stuff pre-MM3 and suffers for it, because those monsters just don't cope well.

Actually I will check Marauders and yes, there is a fair amount of stuff in there from pre-MM3 sources. Not that it would be much of a worry in the end though as most of it is still from the up to date MM3+ design and again, it's a heroic adventure.

Removed Marauders, left Vor Rukoth.