Monster Math Old and New

[Aulirophile]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateDMG.pdf

Last page. Enjoy.

 

[TheUltramark]

my limited brain capacity is at critical mass

so...the player math is off, so they came out with expertise (? right?) to make it better/easier to hit....
then the monsters didn't do enough damage, so they had to "elevated".

I might be WAY off, but it almost sounds like they could have left both alone and been ok...
again, all this is realized in the upper paragon/epic tiers....right???

 

[malraux]

my limited brain capacity is at critical mass

so...the player math is off, so they came out with expertise (? right?) to make it better/easier to hit....
then the monsters didn't do enough damage, so they had to "elevated".

I might be WAY off, but it almost sounds like they could have left both alone and been ok...
again, all this is realized in the upper paragon/epic tiers....right???

Well, it depends on how you want to balance things. Players and monsters with lower DPS means that fights will take longer both in terms of rounds and real life. It could still be balanced that way, but it certainly is reasonable to say that the higher levels got a bit grindy. Also, DMs were moving to level + 2-3 for building encounters to get the damage numbers to be a bit better, which really added to the problem.

By rejigging the numbers, fights are a bit faster. Over all, this is a good thing.

 

[Goonalan]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateDMG.pdf

Last page. Enjoy.

To help me out, because I'm lazy, I took the above table and kinda extrapolated (is that the right word/spelling), attached is my version (.xls).

A little help, columns are-

Level of creature

Single attack damage & range

Brute creature single attack or normal creature limited use power i.e. encounter power or recharge (bottom end) damage & range (basically this is single attack damage x1.25)

Brute creature single attack or normal creature limited use power i.e. encounter power or recharge (upper end) damage & range (basically this is single attack damage x1.5)

Brute single attack with limited use power i.e. encounter power or recharge (bottom end) damage & range (basically this is single attack for Brute damage x1.25)

Brute single attack with limited use power i.e. encounter power or recharge (basically this is single attack for Brute damage x1.5)

And repeat all of the above for attacks that effect two or more targets.

Then Minion damage & Brute Minion damage.

Funnily enough I was just going to post in this section that I was going through the Tomb of Horrors when I discovered that some of the monsters are using MM1 damage and others MM3- but someone beat me to it.

If the tables are wrong then mail me.

I also included some look up tables so that if I want a little variety then monsters can use different die and bonuses to to get different damage ranges, or else just to mix it up a bit so I'm not rolling the same dice all of the time.

Cheers goonalan

 

[samursus]

my limited brain capacity is at critical mass

so...the player math is off, so they came out with expertise (? right?) to make it better/easier to hit....
then the monsters didn't do enough damage, so they had to "elevated".

I might be WAY off, but it almost sounds like they could have left both alone and been ok...
again, all this is realized in the upper paragon/epic tiers....right???

Not so simple. The fights in general were way too laggy and there were specific issues with solos and soldiers I believe. So the expertise feats dealt with the specific issues of being able to hit (math adjustment to maintain a "sweet spot" throughout the levels) and the monster adjustments were for other reasons.

 

[Goonalan]

my limited brain capacity is at critical mass

so...the player math is off, so they came out with expertise (? right?) to make it better/easier to hit....
then the monsters didn't do enough damage, so they had to "elevated".

I might be WAY off, but it almost sounds like they could have left both alone and been ok...
again, all this is realized in the upper paragon/epic tiers....right???

we've been doing this crazy thing where we employ a minion to sit at the table and record every action, attack, damage etc. for all of our combats when we game- and we've been at it for over a year now.

We started to notice that at level 7+ the PCs were kicking ass and taking prisoners, and not getting through their Healing Surges, APs, Daily Powers et al- even in Encounters PC Level +4. And this was playing with multiple PCs (ie same players but many different PCs and adventures). It may have been just us but the PCs connection rate was going up all the time, damage done going up and yet the monsters damage output was only advancing very slightly- the threat went out of the game.

It took us a while to figure this out, we're not bright etc. we caught it at Level 10-11 Paragon, I think, I rejigged the Monster damage and it was like going back to 1st level again, Encounter PC Level +1 were dangerous again. Connection rates didn't change much but the monster damage started to increase at a much healthier rate and the PCs were back to being afraid again. Also encounter times dropped a little- not massively because the players were having to do a lot more thinking about what to do next, they had become pretty cavalier prior to the change in maths.

I engineered the maths in to a new campaign I started approx 6 months ago (from Level 1- with different players again) and fights are much much better now- the PCs still go toe-to-toe with Level +2-3 (and worse) Encounters every now and then (like two sessions ago) but they're Level 4-5 PCs now and most every serious fight is down and dirty, with a better than 50% chance that at least one PC is going to visit 0 HP or below.

Two sessions ago a Level +2 Encounter, the PCs fourth encounter of the day (all other Level +/-1) left all bar one of the six PCs on one Healing Surge remaining, we'd not seen a fight as bloody as this, possibly, ever- it was truly titanic and left several players and this DM breathless, I was going to apologise when the players started gabbling about how great it all was.

If its working for you as is then don't mess with it- for us rejigging damage, even for Level 1 Monsters has proved to be glorious- we would never go back, and I'm genuinely frightened for the players for when we get to Paragon Levels this time around.

Cheers Goonalan

 

[Aegeri]

my limited brain capacity is at critical mass

so...the player math is off, so they came out with expertise (? right?) to make it better/easier to hit....
then the monsters didn't do enough damage, so they had to "elevated".

I might be WAY off, but it almost sounds like they could have left both alone and been ok...
again, all this is realized in the upper paragon/epic tiers....right???

MM1 monsters always sucked. Expertise did not change that, except for making them marginally less grindy.

 

[Dausuul]

my limited brain capacity is at critical mass

so...the player math is off, so they came out with expertise (? right?) to make it better/easier to hit....
then the monsters didn't do enough damage, so they had to "elevated".

I might be WAY off, but it almost sounds like they could have left both alone and been ok...
again, all this is realized in the upper paragon/epic tiers....right???

First, I'm fairly sure the increase in PC damage output from expertise is not as great as the increase in monster damage output from MM3.

Second, and more importantly, the fact that both sides got increases to damage output (PCs in the form of improved hit chance, monsters in the form of bigger damage numbers) results in faster, less grindy combats.

The power balance between PCs and monsters is actually a minor point compared to this. If your PCs are blowing through the opposition, all that you as DM have to do is crank up the monster level a notch--in fact, you'll have to calibrate monster level anyway, since some groups are better at optimization and tactics than others. This is an easy fix. But if a properly leveled fight is long and boring because the PCs never hit and the monsters deal pathetic damage, that's not so easy.

 

[Obryn]

my limited brain capacity is at critical mass

so...the player math is off, so they came out with expertise (? right?) to make it better/easier to hit....
then the monsters didn't do enough damage, so they had to "elevated".

I might be WAY off, but it almost sounds like they could have left both alone and been ok...
again, all this is realized in the upper paragon/epic tiers....right???

Oh gosh, no...

These are two separate issues that needed addressed. PCs didn't hit enough, and monsters didn't do enough damage. Neither of these negates the other, and both produce more interesting, more exciting fights.

Now, if WotC had increased PC chances to hit, and then increased monster AC, you'd be on to something. But these are not changes that contradict one another.

-O

 

[TheUltramark]

Oh gosh, no...

These are two separate issues that needed addressed. PCs didn't hit enough, and monsters didn't do enough damage. Neither of these negates the other, and both produce more interesting, more exciting fights.

Now, if WotC had increased PC chances to hit, and then increased monster AC, you'd be on to something. But these are not changes that contradict one another.

-O

well, the reason I ask is it would seem if a player is hitting less often he is dealing less dmg/rd and apparently the monsters deal less dmg/rd
thats all

Again, I am a bit nervous about the future of our game, since we are still in the lower heroic tier I was able to hand the pc's their hats with a group of kenkus and then again with a mere 4 giant centipedes and some clever use of terrain. In both fights the players were crying the bad guys were "hitting too hard" - to which I responded boo freakin hoo -