Monster Vault

[Scribe Ineti]

^That being said, for those with DDI subscriptions, the Monster Builder software makes it ridiculously easy to modify monsters from any source. I haven't had the need to tweak monster stats yet, though. But I can if I wanted to, just a matter of tweaking the builder to taste.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Well- I'd have to check on that but ok... I'm not sure I'd consider that really any different then any power creep... And if you consider power creep an edition update... That seems kind of drastic doesn't it?

Oh, sure. I don't care one way another about the "new edition" thing. But between the natural amount of power creep and the evolution of monster design (arguably Revolution), it's probably fair to say that a decent chunk of the MM1 monsters are behind the curve.

Not unplayable, invalid, or anything like that, but probably less interesting than their compendium counterparts without some DM intervention or retrofit.

For some people, that's enough to declare the MM1 obsolete or "replaced." I think they have something of a point, but I'm not dogmatic about it. The majority of it can be used as is, or with just minor modifications. Lower soldier defenses, higher damage on the solos, that kind of thing that's been all over the boards anyway.

 

[cavalier973]

So, one could keep the MM1 monsters just like they are, excepting a reduction in XP for defeating them?

 

[Solvarn]

I've preordered Monster Vault, happy to have MM1 monsters updated... but, seriously, this is 4.5 in disguise...

Shame on you, Wizards, shame on you...

Not really, you can go back and re-work the iconic monsters yourself. Or you could pony up 10$ for one month of DDI and download the Adventure Tools which has all of the monsters in it.

In fact, you don't really even need to use the new monsters, just use the updated damage values in the errata. If you want to take advantage of the time that they spent developing the material though, you can buy it.

 

[Korgoth]

Are we loosing the knowledge check entries?

That kind of sucks.

No more Bear Lore? 4.5!

 

[RangerWickett]

Monsters should be common, uncommon, and rare too, like magic items. Or maybe famous, obscure, and hermetic.

Famous monsters have a knowledge DC of 5. Obscure of 20. Hermetic of 35. If you make your check, you know the basics about the monster. If you beat the DC by 5 or more, you know just about everything about it.

For instance, orcs are famous, as are dragons. Everyone has heard stories about dragons, so most everyone knows the basic delineations of colors and how they match to elements. A specific dragon, though, might be obscure if he's not been active for a while. And an elder dragon who has lain dormant for millennia would be hermetic.

 

[Korgoth]

Monsters should be common, uncommon, and rare too, like magic items. Or maybe famous, obscure, and hermetic.

Famous monsters have a knowledge DC of 5. Obscure of 20. Hermetic of 35. If you make your check, you know the basics about the monster. If you beat the DC by 5 or more, you know just about everything about it.

For instance, orcs are famous, as are dragons. Everyone has heard stories about dragons, so most everyone knows the basic delineations of colors and how they match to elements. A specific dragon, though, might be obscure if he's not been active for a while. And an elder dragon who has lain dormant for millennia would be hermetic.

Bears are hermetic. Only the wisest sages know the arcane secrets of Bear Lore.

The monsters you really have to watch out for are the hermeneutic ones. They all speak German and no one has any idea what they're ever talking about.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Monsters should be common, uncommon, and rare too, like magic items. Or maybe famous, obscure, and hermetic.

Famous monsters have a knowledge DC of 5. Obscure of 20. Hermetic of 35. If you make your check, you know the basics about the monster. If you beat the DC by 5 or more, you know just about everything about it.

For instance, orcs are famous, as are dragons. Everyone has heard stories about dragons, so most everyone knows the basic delineations of colors and how they match to elements. A specific dragon, though, might be obscure if he's not been active for a while. And an elder dragon who has lain dormant for millennia would be hermetic.

Interesting idea, but the problem with famous anything is that 90% of the things "everybody knows" (DC 5) are wrong. So you still need a higher check to separate the truth from the far more powerful and widespread fiction.

 

[Scribble]

Oh, sure. I don't care one way another about the "new edition" thing. But between the natural amount of power creep and the evolution of monster design (arguably Revolution), it's probably fair to say that a decent chunk of the MM1 monsters are behind the curve.

But my point is/was power creep is really the only thing that would put the mm1 monsters behind the curve- new monster design doesn't effect them. In fact new monster design seems to be a realization that the old monster design was behind the curve from the start.

Not unplayable, invalid, or anything like that, but probably less interesting than their compendium counterparts without some DM intervention or retrofit.

For some people, that's enough to declare the MM1 obsolete or "replaced." I think they have something of a point, but I'm not dogmatic about it. The majority of it can be used as is, or with just minor modifications. Lower soldier defenses, higher damage on the solos, that kind of thing that's been all over the boards anyway.

But I don't think that's fair to say really. I mean some people liked playing classes from PHB II better then the classes in the PHB I...

Should WoTC not put out new material because someone might like it more then the older material?

I think personally this is one of the benefits of Exception based design... Everything is insulated from everything else.

If they choose to release another set of monsters, it doesn't effect the ones I already have. If I'm enjoying them , I can keep doing so.

If I don't I can get the new ones, and keep going with my game.

That was one of the things that annoyed me about the 3.5 switch... For instance monsters in the switch had their DR changed... Now instead of a player being able to use just a +x magic item, they had to have specific types. This forced me to change other aspects of my game. I couldn't just use the new monster rules and move on- to keep balance right, I had to let my players switch out their weapon types.

This is why I get bugged with the 4.5 essentials thing... People are barking up the wrong tree. There are some changes they've made that I WOULD consider an update to the edition itself... Essentials is not one of them.

 

[Scribble]

Bears are hermetic. Only the wisest sages know the arcane secrets of Bear Lore.

The monsters you really have to watch out for are the hermeneutic ones. They all speak German and no one has any idea what they're ever talking about.

Ich bin der tuefelhund!