Monster vs Monster

[Frostmarrow]

I was just thinking; can monsters fight monsters in 4E? I haven't looked into it but the simplistic approach to monster stats in 4E may lend itself to wargaming.

DDM has been cancelled and the distribution of D&D minis will be different for the next wave, as far as I know.

So, what if a friend and I decide to use 4E as an engine for wargaming, what can we expect? Let's say we decide to fight an 8th level battle against each other and we can pick models from Monster Manual, buying models in much the same way a DM buys monsters for an encounter and then duke it out. Will this work? What problems might arise?

 

[Nightson]

Monsters have a narrower range of options then players which may tilt the balance one way or another. But they should be reasonably balanced.

 

[Asmor]

The problem is, experience value is based solely on level and status, and level and status are very gross indicators of power. In other words, two level 7 soldiers can vary wildly in terms of power.

If you're going to do something like this, here's what I'd recommend: One person designs two teams which are meant to fight each other. The other person then chooses which team they want to play. Thus, there's an incentive to make balanced teams.

 

[Nightson]

The problem is, experience value is based solely on level and status, and level and status are very gross indicators of power. In other words, two level 7 soldiers can vary wildly in terms of power.

A perusal of the Monster Manual doesn't seem to bear this contention out, do you have specific examples?

 

[Asmor]

A perusal of the Monster Manual doesn't seem to bear this contention out, do you have specific examples?

It's not something I particularly care one way or another about, so I don't really pay attention to things like this. As long as they're within an appropriate range, it's fine for RPG purposes.

That said, I do recall there being a big hubbub when 4e was released with respect to Zombie Rotters vs. Hobgoblin Grunts, which are both level 3 minions. They have equivalent attack and damage, but the hobgoblin's defenses are significantly in excess of the zombie's.

 

[Wik]

A good example here would be in terms of working together. You can design a group of, say, five skulk zombies and a big brute or soldier. You put the brute in a flanking position, and then the skulk zombies can use their move, hit, move power (which gets combat advantage) to deal out (if only three of the five attacks hit) something like 9d6 points of damage.

In other words, if you did something like this, it would be very easy to build power combos that might not work well in a "Vs." environment.

And Asmor is absolutely right - you can take two monsters, and they can be quite different from one another despite having the same role and level. An example off the top of my head would be the Orc Raider (a level 3 brute, I think) - the ability to heal himself, coupled with good ranged and melee attacks, makes him much more deadly than, say, a Guard Drake (which is 3rd level, isn't it?)

Asmor's approach (one guy designs, the other guy gets first pick) would be a good approach for someone trying to make a vs. approach. That being said, I have no doubt we'll see a 3rd party approach to DDM sometime in the next year. A ruleset for turning 4e into a vs. game wouldn't be that hard, and would probably sell pretty well.

So, if you're a developer looking for a product idea... there you go.

 

[Nightson]

Orc Raider is a level 3 skirmisher and Guard Drake is a level 2 brute.

 

[Wik]

Orc Raider is a level 3 skirmisher and Guard Drake is a level 2 brute.

Alright. I'm wrong. Like I said, I don't have the books on me. Kinda thought the Raider was a brute, though.

 

[Abisashi]

...Zombie Rotters...

I'm not sure whether there is a discrepancy in monster power levels (I'd be there is), but in the case of the Zombie Rotter, the monster is just broken; it should be a level 1 minion.

 

[Nightson]

So, I went through the MM up till Dryad and looked at monster ACs to see how they compared. This is AC-Level for results, DM recommendation is in parentheses nest to the name

Brute: (12)
10: 1 result
11: 1 result
12: 10 results
13: 1 result

Artillery: (12)
12: 2 results
13: 5 results
14: 4 results
15: 0 results
16: 0 results
17: 1 result (Venomeye Basilisk is an outlier)

Lurker: (14)
12: 1 result
13: 3 results
14: 5 results
15: 1 result

Soldier: (16)
13: 1 result
14: 2 results
15: 2 results
16: 14 results
17: 2 results
18: 1 result

Skirmisher: (14)
14: 11 results
15: 4 results

Controller: (14)
12: 1 result
13: 2 results
14: 6 results
15: 0 results
16: 1 result