monsters and multiple attacks

[messy]

allo

i'm having some confusion about monsters and multiple attacks. for example, ed the large earth elemental has a BAB of +6. with his strength of 25 (+7) and large size (-1), i would expect ed to have 2 attacks at +12/+7. but instead, he has 2 attacks at +12/+12. why is this? since the attacks have the same bonus, is ed considered to be "dual-wielding" his fists? if that's the case, all attacks shouls be at -2, and with a BAB of +6, he should have 2 attacks with each.

do monster attacks just work differently than those of creatures with class levels? what happens if ed gains a level in fighter? what would his attack bonus(es) be then? +13/+13 (still "dual-wielding" his fists)? +11/+6 and +11/+6 (2 attacks with each "dual-wielded" fist)? something else?

help!

messy

 

[frankthedm]

do monster attacks just work differently than those of creatures with class levels?

Yes Monsters with multiple natural attacks work differently. The elemental does not use two weapon fighting rules for it's two slams.
[sblock=Natural weapons]
Natural Weapons
Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity. [/sblock] http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#manufacturedWeapons
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

 

[Herzog]

I knew this.

However, the addition of the SRD quote has made me think:

if a monster combines natural weapons and manufactured weapons, does the manufactured weapon follow the normal iterative attack rules?
And if so, does the monster still get its secondary (natural) attacks?


Example: Centaur with class levels in fighter, Bab +11, attacking with greatsword and hooves...

Is that greatsword at +11/+6/+1 and hooves at +6?
or does he need to choose? Either greatsword at +11 and hooves at +6 or greatsword at +11/+6/+1?

 

[Shin Okada]

Is that greatsword at +11/+6/+1 and hooves at +6?
or does he need to choose? Either greatsword at +11 and hooves at +6 or greatsword at +11/+6/+1?

greatsword at +11/+6/+1 and hooves at +6/+6

No rule says you loose multiple attacks from high BAB for manufactured weapon when a creature uses natural attacks as secondary attacks.

Also, that kind of combination still allow a creature to use all it's natural attacks (except for attacks which use the same body part used for holding the manufactured weapon).

 

[FEADIN]

There is often a confusion with elementals and golems who have 2 slam attacks.

 

[Herzog]

Note also that this is a 3.5 rule.

If I'm not mistaken, the 3.0 rules are different.