Masquerade
First Post
Great ideas in this thread. I'm reminded of Shadow of the Colossus.
Monsters As Encounters
- Thread starter I'm A Banana
- Start date
Raven Crowking
First Post
Bookmarked. Good stuff, KM.
RC
RC
Celebrim
Legend
KM: Compared to the way I originally understood your post, the term 'monster encounter' is being interpreted in an increasingly narrow fashion. For example, Exen Trik's post seems to interpret 'monster encounter' to be only applicable to trans-collosus monsters. This makes the idea of 'monster encounter' to be of extremely narrow usage. In the case of the examples he cites, the 'monster encounter' is really a series of individual encounters with various monsters and environmental hazards which share the common 'fluff' of being part of a single mega-organism.
This is far more narrow than I understood your initial post to cover. For one thing, when you said 'sea serpant', I assumed that you were referring to sea serpants generally, and not merely to trans-collosus leviathans say 1500' in length. The encounter as you describe it could basically be run with any sea serpant of sufficient size to plausibly bash the boat that the players are being transported in. For example, you could run basically the same encounter with a large alligator if the PC's where boating in a canoe.
My first complaint can be basically summed up as, "Isn't every monster more interesting as a multi-layered scene, rather than a simple straight-up fight?" Yet, even though this is true, isn't it equally obvious that 'fight' is an option within the scene at some point?
My second complaint is that the less trans-collosus that the monster is, the more obvious it is that at some point you might need traditional stat blocks because the more likely that it is that the monster is within 8 EL's of the PC's and can be challenged directly as soon as the PC's come up with a plan to deal with the unusual nature of the water dweller's attack. More to the point, at some point, even the trans collosus 1500' long leviathan is something that a PC party realistically can effect. A stat block serves as an arbitrator of a parties interactions with the monster. Without a stat block, you are essentially riding entirely on DM fiat, including the DM fiat that 'this monster cannot be effected by anything that the PC's do'. Now granted, the game is not really set up to deal with huge differences in scale like what you describe, and you might need some special abilities to capture the flavor of really really huge well, and it might even be good if there were a set of standardized rules for all trans-collossal creatures (some sort of supplement), but I don't see how stats become obselete just because things get big. At some point, isn't the DM going to have to make calls like, 'Is the DR of this creature 30/- or 50/-?' 'Does it have 10,000 hit points or 15,000?', 'How fast can it move?' and so forth. The alternative is to just wing it, yank the PC's chain, and risk (as you put it) 'abusing the PCs'.
I'm not very fond of the notion of encounters as putting the PC's on a railroad, which is what a statless encounter seems to imply.
And you seem to agree, since you say, among other things:
Isn't this going pretty darn close to having a stat block?
This is far more narrow than I understood your initial post to cover. For one thing, when you said 'sea serpant', I assumed that you were referring to sea serpants generally, and not merely to trans-collosus leviathans say 1500' in length. The encounter as you describe it could basically be run with any sea serpant of sufficient size to plausibly bash the boat that the players are being transported in. For example, you could run basically the same encounter with a large alligator if the PC's where boating in a canoe.
My first complaint can be basically summed up as, "Isn't every monster more interesting as a multi-layered scene, rather than a simple straight-up fight?" Yet, even though this is true, isn't it equally obvious that 'fight' is an option within the scene at some point?
My second complaint is that the less trans-collosus that the monster is, the more obvious it is that at some point you might need traditional stat blocks because the more likely that it is that the monster is within 8 EL's of the PC's and can be challenged directly as soon as the PC's come up with a plan to deal with the unusual nature of the water dweller's attack. More to the point, at some point, even the trans collosus 1500' long leviathan is something that a PC party realistically can effect. A stat block serves as an arbitrator of a parties interactions with the monster. Without a stat block, you are essentially riding entirely on DM fiat, including the DM fiat that 'this monster cannot be effected by anything that the PC's do'. Now granted, the game is not really set up to deal with huge differences in scale like what you describe, and you might need some special abilities to capture the flavor of really really huge well, and it might even be good if there were a set of standardized rules for all trans-collossal creatures (some sort of supplement), but I don't see how stats become obselete just because things get big. At some point, isn't the DM going to have to make calls like, 'Is the DR of this creature 30/- or 50/-?' 'Does it have 10,000 hit points or 15,000?', 'How fast can it move?' and so forth. The alternative is to just wing it, yank the PC's chain, and risk (as you put it) 'abusing the PCs'.
I'm not very fond of the notion of encounters as putting the PC's on a railroad, which is what a statless encounter seems to imply.
And you seem to agree, since you say, among other things:
Isn't this going pretty darn close to having a stat block?
Zaruthustran
The tingling means it’s working!
Rechan said:
You need to play God of War. The game is terrific all 'round, but is famous for its over the top "boss fights" with gods, creatures of myth, and so on.
Here's a PA comic about it:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/19
Here's a youtube with the very first fight, about two minutes from the start of the game. It's with a hydra/sea serpent, from within and atop your sinking fleet.
Encounter 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHpsxWuun-A
Encounter 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIKFoPcCtk8
Encounter 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KStpDpItAgs (this one has... "music" overlaid on top of the video)
This Youtube is of another game, Shadow of the Colossus, that is literally and entirely all about these huge encounters with titanic creatures. This video is a compilation of scenes set to decent music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i_FxqyW2PE . Beautiful game, that. And a good example of an encounter with a creature that can't be beaten simply by hacking away at its shins--each one must be killed in a specific way.
Actually, I'm not quite sure what the extent or details of his idea is, so I can't say how it may work or what monsters could be involved. But it did inspire me to come up with those odd encounter ideas, which I just happened to enjoy enough to feel like sharing.Celebrim said:
This does seem to be specifically aimed at trans-colossal monsters, which would be of limited use anyway. I can't tell you how many video games I've played that have had multi-tentacled parts, each with it's own special attack, that somehow protected the 'head'. I think this is a way to think about an encounter to represent that. As far as it's narrow scope, I don't get it unless you are limiting the scope yourself by seeing this as not conforming to 'canonical' rules. I think the point is that this is an exploratory discussion of the idea. I think a different perspective on an encounter idea is great.
Each tentacle represents some part of the monster as a whole and must be dealt with individually. I don't think every encounter should be a carefully balanced CR because not every encounter should be a simple 'sack of hp and fangs'. The game becomes boring if all encounters are winnable just by killing the thing. You don't need dice and a few buddies for that, you just need a controller and 9 out of 10 video games. Making it retreat by hacking tentacles and putting an eye out is just as much saving the ship as killing the beast. If the ship is savable and the DM provides a challenging way to do it... what's the problem? If the ship is fated (by DM fiat) to sink whatever the characters do, there is no need for an action scene.
A 16 acre plague of fiendish locusts with a hive mind approaches an ancient forest. This is probably not a killable thing but there are opportunities for player action here to drive it away, or reduce it to a killable thing. An 'encounter' that lasts all day and needs to be chipped down to a manageable size could provide enough individual encounters within it to bump the characters up a level. I've never done something like this before but now, I have another way to challenge my players. That's the point. Great idea KM.
Each tentacle represents some part of the monster as a whole and must be dealt with individually. I don't think every encounter should be a carefully balanced CR because not every encounter should be a simple 'sack of hp and fangs'. The game becomes boring if all encounters are winnable just by killing the thing. You don't need dice and a few buddies for that, you just need a controller and 9 out of 10 video games. Making it retreat by hacking tentacles and putting an eye out is just as much saving the ship as killing the beast. If the ship is savable and the DM provides a challenging way to do it... what's the problem? If the ship is fated (by DM fiat) to sink whatever the characters do, there is no need for an action scene.
A 16 acre plague of fiendish locusts with a hive mind approaches an ancient forest. This is probably not a killable thing but there are opportunities for player action here to drive it away, or reduce it to a killable thing. An 'encounter' that lasts all day and needs to be chipped down to a manageable size could provide enough individual encounters within it to bump the characters up a level. I've never done something like this before but now, I have another way to challenge my players. That's the point. Great idea KM.
I was just reminded of something I stated up a long while back, the Aberten Horror, a monster with no HP - it was impossible to kill or otherwise stop perminantly. At best, IIRC, it could be physically bound for a few generations or forced/tricked into another plane.
It only had a basic attack, and couldn't do enough damage to be a real threat to any PCs over the teens, but it was sufficient to decimate the NPC population.
Anyway, the entire concept was to force a group of PCs to deal with a situation where normal tactics didn't, and couldn't, work. They'd, in theory, only be able to deal with the threat once they were able to admit that they couldn't stop it, not something PCs typcialy have to deal with.
It only had a basic attack, and couldn't do enough damage to be a real threat to any PCs over the teens, but it was sufficient to decimate the NPC population.
Anyway, the entire concept was to force a group of PCs to deal with a situation where normal tactics didn't, and couldn't, work. They'd, in theory, only be able to deal with the threat once they were able to admit that they couldn't stop it, not something PCs typcialy have to deal with.
