Monsters with classes

[Nellisir]

Or, taking it one step further, all monsters could simply have normal class levels. Helps to get rid of some annoying stuff like dealing with monsterous PCs.

The only thing I'd add is one or two classes that grant spell-like abilities in lieu of actual spells. You'd also need to a) keep level adjustment, b) organize & standarize special powers (like petrifying gaze) to be level dependent, or c) both. The only thing worse than a 5 HD creature with death gaze and a +5 LA is a 1 HD creature with death gaze and a +5 LA.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

The only thing I'd add is one or two classes that grant spell-like abilities in lieu of actual spells. You'd also need to a) keep level adjustment, b) organize & standarize special powers (like petrifying gaze) to be level dependent, or c) both. The only thing worse than a 5 HD creature with death gaze and a +5 LA is a 1 HD creature with death gaze and a +5 LA.

Cheers
Nell.

Yeah, sorry, I probably shoulda put some more stuff in the post, but I was trying to keep it as short as I could.

Each critter ended up with a CR based on innate abilities of the race (Stats, max number of attack capable limbs, stuff like that) any sort of attack abilities (including passive spell like abilities) have to be purchased with class ability slots, this includes the ability to have a second natural attack.

If I had a mob like Lizard Men, who would be nasty as all get out if they had any gear, then I would have their base CR listed with an asterisk to explain that if they go down to Ye Olde Armorey their CR would be +X higher.

The pleasant part of doing it that way is that CR=ECL.

Right after I had started working on that, I decided that I hated the DnD magic system enough that I scrapped it completely. *Really long rant about it that I won't go into*

The system I ended up with determined the highest level that you could cast spells at being based on your Will save (to encourage multi-classing some), with each spell counting as a class ability (to be bought like any other). It allows for (IMO) a much more free flowing magic system and even allows for always on spells (like gaze attacks and druids being immune to tracking). The biggest pain from that was creating a new spell book (since spells for that system actually need to be scalable by what level they're cast at, instead of what level the caster is.)

 

[Gez]

Do monster "races" have a similar, but not identical, distribution of class levels as humans and their allies? I mean that you can pull out the DMG and find out how many fighters there are in a illithid community or sorcerers in a kobold burrow or how many nymphs of the area are clerics.

The more powerful a monster is, the less likely they'll have a number of class levels.

What keeps monsters from taking levels? (Other than the DM of course.) One would expect the violent ones to have combat related classes for most of their population.

Their ECL.

Seriously, I don't bother about NPC exp, so I have no qualms putting a Great Gold Wyrm loremaster 30 somewhere... Although I try to refrain from having too many epic characters running around, if I need one, there he is!

But the fact is, these creatures already have naturally everything they need. Should they try to outgrow their limits and become something more? Not without good incentives, I'd say.

I see the PC class motto as "Be more than you can be" -- you're a puny human, without even a racial HD of your own, and yet you can get to become an epic wizard and learn to reshape the Creation to your liking! Kewl! It's worth trying.

Now, rather than a puny human, you're a mighty dragon. Your claws are sharper than any sword, your wings can make you fly faster than any birds, your intellect can solve Roman's DM's puzzle in a matter of seconds, your hyper-efficient stomach can let your survive indefinitely on a diet of rocks, your scaly hide is an armor stronger than many castles' walls, and your mere breath is more than enough to destroy most would-be enemies.

If you really want to be even more powerful, all you need to do is hibernate until the next age category.

Why should you try pushing your limits? Can you even reach them?

To put it another way... If we humans had the claws of a tiger and the fur of a bear, would have we bothered domesticating fire and crafting weapons? Our weaknesses are our strength, for it made us look for ways to out them, and this result in us being the mightiest animals out there.

Back to D&D world. Dragons are innately überpowerful. Their strength is their weakness, for they're perfectly content being just what they are. Being an average dragon is good enough for them. Even being a weaker-than-average dragon is good enough to be subjugate a few tribes of humanoids and get worshipped as a god and receive offerings of loot and food for the rest of your long, long, long life.

Why should they bother with the risks and the strains of that adventuring life that let a few humans become deities -- and the vast majority of their fellows become corpses, when even that remain from desintegration/lava immersion/troll feast...

Why don't dragons take levels in barbarian and sorcerer and, with their high level barbarian and cleric orc and goblin slaves, drive humans back into the stone age?

Because, for dragons, it's more trouble than what it's worth to get class levels. And for orcs and goblins, usually a high-level goblin or orc becomes the leader of the tribe, and thus get assassinated during his sleep (or through poison, or whatever they can devise) by a lower-level tribemember who thinks he'll get to be the new leader.

 

[DMH]

Their ECL.

That brings up an interesting question- what happens to the ECL of a dragon that does take a few levels when young and then gains "levels" due to age? They effectively gain levels without xp.

 

[Psion]

That brings up an interesting question- what happens to the ECL of a dragon that does take a few levels when young and then gains "levels" due to age? They effectively gain levels without xp.

Not according to the Draconomicon. You gotta pay for your age HD levels, too.

At any rate, as everyone should know, XP are (primarily) for PCs.

 

[DMH]

I don't have nor will ever get the Draconomicon since I use dragons rarely. They require XP for aging?!? I wonder if that applies to all monster advancement (hey look, a 4th level carrion crawler!).

At any rate, as everyone should know, XP are (primarily) for PCs.

Mike (who owns my FLGS) said it best- Rules are for players.

 

[Nightfall]

Right but even DMs need to follow the vague OUTLINE of rules. Otherwise it's just writing a novel that no one will want to read.

 

[S'mon]

Right but even DMs need to follow the vague OUTLINE of rules. Otherwise it's just writing a novel that no one will want to read.

GMs need rules for PC-NPC and PC-PC interaction. They don't need rules for stuff players aren't involved in, like NPC-NPC interaction.

 

[Zappo]

...a HG get 0 xp for defeating another of its own kind.

That, OTOH, is simply weird. It is obvious that a HG vs another HG has a 50% chance of winning. If that isn't a bloody hard challenge, I don't know what is. It's a bug in the CR/EL/ECL system, and something that should be fixed in D&D 4e when it gets out next year.

 

[jmucchiello]

That, OTOH, is simply weird. It is obvious that a HG vs another HG has a 50% chance of winning. If that isn't a bloody hard challenge, I don't know what is. It's a bug in the CR/EL/ECL system, and something that should be fixed in D&D 4e when it gets out next year.

It's because ECLs do not scale upward. Add 20 levels to anything. Is the LA +7 creature really a 27th level threat compared to the 20th level human? Probably not. Probably they are far closer to 21st level vs 20th level and even that is pushing it. 20 levels of a class far outstrips a bunch of racial abilities.

IMO, use LA as an XP cost. LA +7 means the character has to waste 28,000 xp before starting at level 1 in a class. Attaining level 2 should only cost 1,000 xp once the 28,000 xp have been spent. Thus the LA+7 character is level 1 when the rest of the party is level 8. After 1,000 xp he gets to level 2. After 8,000 xp the rest of the party gets to level 9 and he is approaching level 4 (2,000 xp away). Eventually, he will be no more than a level behind. YMMV.