Monte Cook: Guidance for Monsters and Treasure

[delericho]

I think that most monetary treasure should be physical objects of value - jewellery, art, etc.

Yep, I'd agree with this.

Also, I'm inclined to think that most 'found' magic items should be (a) something more powerful than the party could buy with their current wealth, but also (b) explicitly not something they would choose for themselves if they just had the money to spend.

The first of these conditions should, hopefully, get the "cool!" response, since it's always good to get nice items. The second is key in that it negates the "wish list" thinking. Additionally, coupled with the 20% (or 50%) sale price it gives rise to an interesting choice - keep the 'powerful' item, or trade it in for a less powerful but 'tailored' item?

Incidentally, it's probably important to note that when I said "explicitly not something they would choose for themselves", I didn't mean "give them a useless item"! If the party's Fighter is an Axe specialist, giving him a magical longsword instead is not really a good idea. But it's not a binary choice between "the perfect item" and "useless item" - give them the magical axe... but go for some of the more unusual enhancements and qualities, rather than the holy, flaming and/or bane vs evil outsiders that they'd probably choose for themselves.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Absolutely. I would really quite like if the rules were a bit more specific about the economics of magic items too. They need to make it quite clear what is easy to make (potions of healing) against what is probably impossible without research and adventure (holy avengers).

A random magic item generation table is also useful for determining what shopkeepers have for sale. It would be nice to know how much wealth they have to spend on your stuff too (though I think 3E's rules for the GP limit were a little obtuse).

 

[KidSnide]

Absolutely. I would really quite like if the rules were a bit more specific about the economics of magic items too. They need to make it quite clear what is easy to make (potions of healing) against what is probably impossible without research and adventure (holy avengers).

A random magic item generation table is also useful for determining what shopkeepers have for sale. It would be nice to know how much wealth they have to spend on your stuff too (though I think 3E's rules for the GP limit were a little obtuse).

What's easy to make and what can't be made seems like a factor that will vary significantly game by game.

I fear that WotC will have a very hard time figuring out how to support all of these various styles. It wouldn't surprise me if we get a level chart of items and some very general advice about how items can be deployed in game.

-KS

 

[Grazzt]

One of the few things I liked about 4e was monster design and the XP budget for encounter design. Those things worked really well (IMO) and were very streamlined and quick.

Treasure parcels on the other hand should die a horrible, painful, fiery death (again IMO). Random treasure is the way to go (with guidelines on building treasure if needed).

 

[Klaus]

I agree that you need something to work off of, but I think creating a single baseline can cause the "player expectations" problem that Monte aludes to. A better approach is to create a set of baselines (e.g. high, medium and low/no magic items) and let DMs know what those choices look like and how to customize further from there.

(For example, a DM could choose a random distribution and/or a have rewards track risk to a greater to lesser degree. Any of these options will be the right choice for someone...)

-KS

I'd be OK with guidelines for high, average and low/no magic rewards.

 

[vagabundo]

The 4e level/XP budget system for encounter design was fantastic. Very intutive and would certainly be worth keeping for 5e with some tweaks and improvements.

On treasure I'm not so sure. Maybe use a similar treasure budget system based on gold where you pick interesting items, but the DM will always want to give the player items they will use (or they will just sell them anyway), that means customising the items to the characters. So if a fighter has weapon focus Greatswords, you'll be tempted to thrown in a magic greatsword. I'm not a fan of this method as it is more work for me, the DM.

I prefer if they would make magic weapons and implements more usable generally. So any character class would use them, maybe not as effectively as some who has specialised or trained in their use, but good enough so they have some reaso not sell it. Then I could generate them randomly or just pick out interesting items for my NPCs and monsters to use.

 

[Mark CMG]

Yeah, I know. Math is hard.

That's not the objection. It's the funneling and requirements toward particular aspects that is constant and unnecessary inherently in the concept of the game.

 

[Harlekin]

CR System 5 - A DM needs to be able to evaluate how difficult an encounter will be even without years of experience

DM Freedom 5 - Obviously

Predictability 1 - I don't like games of Murder Hobos and I find predictable difficulty for characters is almost always extremely artificial and reminds me that I am in a game rather than in a real world.

Randomness 2-3 - Random tables can support creativity and make the game more fun for the DM, but as a premier tool, they can also mess up a lot.

 

[delericho]

On treasure I'm not so sure. Maybe use a similar treasure budget system based on gold where you pick interesting items, but the DM will always want to give the player items they will use (or they will just sell them anyway),

The trick is to make it a trade off, which is actually already inherent in the 50%/20% resale value rule. So, the DM gives out an item that the PC can use effectively, but which is probably not quite what they would choose if they got a totally free pick. They can keep and use this item, or they can choose to trade it in for an item that is a free choice. But since they don't get full value on the trade, the item they buy for themselves is (in theory at least) weaker than the one they've found.

By pitching the resale value at the right percentage of the purchase price (and I'm not sure what that percentage should be), and by removing the "functional but dull" items from the treasure lists, you create an interesting choice for the player. And interesting choices are a good thing.

that means customising the items to the characters. So if a fighter has weapon focus Greatswords, you'll be tempted to thrown in a magic greatsword. I'm not a fan of this method as it is more work for me, the DM.

I think if the game is going to allow characters to specialise in this manner, there's always going to need to be at least some tailoring of treasures to characters. And the more specialisation of characters is allowed, the more the treasure must be suited to the character.

But yeah, if the primary warrior in the group is focussed in the use of the greatsword, it's probably best if the treasures found heavily weight magic weapons towards the greatsword...

(Indeed, it might be as well if the "Random Magic Weapon" table, or equivalent, has an entry such as "Warrior's primary weapon" as it's most common entry, perhaps at a 66% chance of showing up. This automatically weights the result towards the most suitable result, without making it automatic that they'll get just the right item.)

 

[DEFCON 1]

I personally believe that there should be all manner of things in the DMG to help / give examples to newer DMs to figure out just what the heck they need to do to run the game. This includes monster CRs or XP budgets, or CLs or whatever to give an indication of probable power level to monsters... as well as set and/or random treasure tables to tell them how much junk the PCs should probably have to make the indicated CR/XP/CLs actually work right.

But on top of that... I think there needs to be written on the very first page of the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual in nice, big, bold, block letters...

THE INFORMATION IN THIS BOOK ARE GUIDELINES TO PLAYERS AND DUNGEONMASTERS, NOT ABSOLUTES!!! YOU MAY FIND CHANGES IN YOUR PERSONAL GAME THAT DEVIATE FROM THE EXPECTED NORMS WE PUT FORTH HERE!!!

Because all the players in this game need to finally come to grips with the fact that Playing As Written is not a requirement, necessity, or expectation in every single D&D game they participate in. Sometimes things will be in the books to help newer players understand or get through difficult situations and are not meant to be needed by more experienced players. Or some things will be in the book to help players from different eras reach an accord with each other on things that mimic their olds experiences versus adapting and compromising to a new experience.

So stop pissing and moaning that the rules are in the book trying to tell you "how I should play my game!" They're not. They're guidelines. Ignore them... don't complain that they're there.