D&D 4E Monte Cook on 4E

[PhantomNarrator]

HA!

LOL!!! My sentiments exactly.

 

[Hussar]

"Unedited mess"? Take a look at the Spell Compendium for the definition of "unedited mess". Iron Heroes is steps above many WotC (and non WotC) products when it comes to editing things.

Broken Mechanics? Look at the spells in the Spell Compendium! Or some spells in the PHB those are plenty broken. There is PLENTY in WotC library of books that contain broken stuff.

SC was an unedited mess? Really? I haven't used the book, but, I'm reading through it from time to time. I hadn't actually noticed anything. Meh, I guess my standards for RPG books are pretty low.

In any case, yes, the climate now is completely different than 1999. Of course it is. I don't think TSR was doing quite as badly market share wise as some have claimed, but, it wasn't good. 3.5, OTOH, is the 600 pound gorilla. It owns the RPG market. So, really, I do think 3.5 will be 4.0's largest competition. At least for a couple of years.

 

[Wolfspider]

3.5, OTOH, is the 600 pound gorilla.

What happened to the other 200 lbs.?

 

[Alikar]

What happened to the other 200 lbs.?

Well its the 4th edition version of 3.5.

 

[Hussar]

What happened to the other 200 lbs.?

Meh, I hate working in Imperial.

 

[Epic Meepo]

What happened to the other 200 lbs.?

Meh. Dwarves and halflings get ever taller, gorillas get ever lighter. It's just the way of things.

 

[frankthedm]

Still waiting for the "utterly broken mechanics" in regards to Iron Heroes. I've seen that claim a few times in the thread and I'm interested in know just what they supposedly are.

Other than that the revised version features corrections and clarifications for:
6 traits
40 class abilities
5 skills
27 feats
9 magical methods

http://ironheroesfaq.pbwiki.com/

Some common issues with IH are Mentioned here...

The save DCs were all over the place (most token ability saves were very low DC. Some, included the Archer's save-or-die IIRC, were instead unsaveable.) The Armiger didn't work. The Harrier had abilities whose descriptions didn't parse. Stunting was OMGWTF broken (hint: using jump to stunt for more movement to use jump to stunt for damage is a *bad* idea). At least one combination of Power Attack or Cleave feat masteries looked like a 3AM brainstorm session (free movement and extra attacks for every hit that did over 10 damage? something like that).

Plus

*Armor as low and random DR with Power Attack being 2 for 1 with two handed weapons can easily become obscene.

*Talent to wield a larger weapon is often questioned in balance discussions.

* Arcanist class, if you've had no issues with it, great for you, but it sure seems to be a LOT of folks seeking alternates... http://okayyourturn.yuku.com/forums/9/t/Iron-Heroes.html

* Intimidate: Browbeat can generate unbeatable DCs without much difficulty

 

[Odhanan]

Iron Heroes Revised was welcome, if only for the clarifications that came with it.

I don't think the original Armiger was broken, but it catered (and still caters) to a very specific kind of player. The revised Armiger makes it more attractive from the get-go. Stunt and Challenges are mechanics best handled by a DM ruling on the spot rather than following rules straight out of the book - that's the intent behind them. As for damage output, combat potentially becoming "obscene", yes, that's true. That's sort of the point of the game for those who like that kind of thing, if you ask me. Lastly, I don't consider the Arcanist to be broken either - its use in a game requires a vigilant DM however and a player who's goal isn't to optimize every single magical effect in the game, since there are a few loopholes (fixed in the Revised Edition).

Now, I don't think that the original IH is broken. Many of the discussions surrounding this or that ability being broken are theoretical, shared in a vacuum with little to no actual play issues. That is due to the nature of IH itself which will appeal (in part) to people who love to tinker with game mechanics out of the box. In actual play, nothing truly breaks the game, IMO.

Basically, if you're not obsessed with game balance, are not afraid of adjudications on the spot, and have players who are not consistently trying to "break the game just to see what it does", then you can get the original IH. No worries.

If you want more clarity and more consistency, you can get the Revised hardback at Lulu.com.

/hijack