Monter Manual II CR issues (was MM 2 errata in progress?)

[ZSutherland]

A bit of an off topic question for Clark411 or anyone else who can field it. Where does that formula for determining CR come from and is there a list of numerical values for the different SQ's?

I've often gone through the MM looking for suitable challenge ratings for my group and wound up scratching my head going "Who do ya figure?" after I've reviewed the long description.

As an example, I tossed a Half-Troll/Half-Green Dragon (CR 7) at my party of 7th lvl characters. Without changing anything & w/o using it's breath-weapon in was positively ripping them a new one. I sent an NPC in to save them after the second PC dropped, since I figured it was my fault.

If someone can point me to this list I can go back and see what I think about the values assigned to each thing and what I might want to revise for our campaigns.

Z

 

[Grazzt]

A bit of an off topic question for Clark411 or anyone else who can field it. Where does that formula for determining CR come from and is there a list of numerical values for the different SQ's?

Z

No list. And the formula comes from Dragon 276. Here is the basic way it works (they use a table in Dragon #276 for step 3, but dividing by 3 works the same way):

1- Take the monster's avg hp and divide by 4.5

2- To this, add +1 or +2 for each SA and SQ the monster possesses.

3- Divide the total by 3. This gives the monster's CR.

As with all numbers in D&D (except where otherwise stated), round all fractions down.

 

[Elric]

I haven't seen the formula, but it seems to imply that a creature with no special abilities has CR equal to its HP/13.5. That is obviously a bad general rule to have, since it results in every high HD/high Con creature having a huge challenge rating. I don't know how special qualities are assigned, but +2/3 of a CR rating for an ability like "Death Gaze" also seems far too low.

 

[Xarlen]

As an example, I tossed a Half-Troll/Half-Green Dragon (CR 7) at my party of 7th lvl characters. Without changing anything & w/o using it's breath-weapon in was positively ripping them a new one. I sent an NPC in to save them after the second PC dropped, since I figured it was my fault.

Z

The CR system is a general thing, not for spesific cases. In the case you just described, you basicly pulled one Weakness out of 2 that a troll has out. Of course it's going to eat them up because they probably can't defend against it properly.

If you make a White dragon fiendish, thus giving it fire resistance, of course it's going to be tougher because it's initial weakness is reduced. As would a Rakshasa who has Windwall, Ghostform, and Displacement up.