Moral Dilemma: Killing and Deaths in RPGs

[Victor Spieles]

So I’m about to turn 50. As I approach this new life milestone I’ve started wrestling with killing and deaths in RPGs.

I don’t know if anyone else has experienced this dilemma.

I’ve withdrawn from one Dungeons & Dragons group this year that was more combat heavy. The group’s solution was kick asses, stockpile treasure and get information later. It was guys I used to really like to game with, but I have evolved into more of a subtle role-play my character and find interesting non-combat ways of overcoming situations and solving adventures.

I also stopped DMing a Dungeons & Dragons group recently after one of the younger players had their 5th level character die. The player failed their three death saves and then had an unexpected meltdown reaction to it. I talked to the player after the game and a subsequent conversation days later. But the character’s death just put them off gaming with the group any longer. Which led to an older player in the group quitting the group over the younger players reaction to their character’s death.

Now days I prefer to run a more role-play character driven exploration and information gathering style of play. But even then most players resort to violence as their first option for dealing with monsters, villains and NPCs.

Part of the draw of RPGs is walking that dangerous balance between life and death. The thrill of staring death in the face and vanquishing a foe or faction to be celebrated as a hero.

I have played various RPGs, most heavily Dungeons & Dragons over 20 years. But it didn’t hit me until this incident the amount of killing we as RPG game masters and players do of humanoids, aliens, creatures, demons, devils, dragons, monsters and robots in various RPG games.

The incident struck a weird chord emotionally in me. I sat down and looked at all the RPGs on my bookshelves and tried to find something to run where the main solution to in-game encounters is not killing the adversary. I also did some searching on Drive Thru RPG for an RPG where exploration and out thinking adversaries is more the premise and focus of the game. It was hard to find RPG options like that.

Has anyone else experienced this dilemma?
Is it just time to put away my dice and RPG hobby?

Can you play and run Dungeons & Dragons without all the violent encounters and killing?

What fantasy and sci fi RPGs would you recommend as an alternative to the traditional slay the adversary and take their loot model?

 

[Blue Orange]

I think D&D is very suboptimal for nonviolent games. Too much of the game system revolves around combat.

I believe FATE and Powered By The Apocalypse have more extensive non-combat-related systems. Tales from the Loop has an 80s 'kids on bikes' feel but may be too specific. Ryuutama is a 'nicer' version of D&D with non-violent options in the fantasy world.

Call of Cthulhu has monsters that are too powerful to kill but if you are sick of death it is not the best choice.

There are a large number of obscure indies that might be a good fit.

 

[payn]

The kicking ass and killing stuff is a staple of D&D. The rule book has hundreds of pages devoted to doing it. D&D is like the John Wick of RPGs. Its paper thin on substance with ass loads of violent deaths for thrills. That feels pretty awesome for a lot folks, but eventually some will see John Wick as the Steven Segal gimmick it is. It's all about preferences and understanding them.

I think you may enjoy exploring other RPGs for a time. I dove into Traveller initially because I wanted some non-Star Wars RPG experience. What I found was a game way more focused on unique problem solving and story telling. No longer was I fixated on getting loot and leveling. I could just explore the character and the world and soak up the immersion. It donned on me how little death occurred and I didnt really miss it at all. Was a refreshing change up.

Some time later, my group wanted to return to traditional dungeon crawl with DCC. I was very reluctant to do so because I didn't really miss it. Or so I thought. I had a blast letting loose with some old school gaming. Kicking in doors, whipping ass, and taking names was pretty fun again.

So, I'd say RPG experiences are like movies. Sometimes you might want to just grab some popcorn and shut off your brain. Other times, you might want to explore deep emotional concepts of humanity and world building. ITs also possible that Marvel is your wheel house and all you want is Whizbang man 17 to come out. You wont know until you explore the possibilities what your preferences are. I know how difficult it can be because D&D is the undisputed king of RPGs, but get out and look around you will be glad you did.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

Has anyone else experienced this dilemma?
Is it just time to put away my dice and RPG hobby?

Can you play and run Dungeons & Dragons without all the violent encounters and killing?

What fantasy and sci fi RPGs would you recommend as an alternative to the traditional slay the adversary and take their loot model?

Don't hang up your dice just yet!

However, I would fully recommend taking some time off from D&D. I'd echo @payn 's thoughts overall, including about Traveler, but also take a look at some of the Powered by the Apocalypse games that are out there, many of which really reduce the emphasis on combat, and make combat riskier, in a sense--not necessarily that you'll get killed, but that something will go wrong--which can make it a last rather than a first resort.

Also take a look at Scum and Villainy, which is my current obsession, but I think an excellent way of de-emphasizing combat and carnage without totally eliminating it. It's a Forged in the Dark game, so its mechanics are heavily inspired by the Powered by the Apocalypse design approach, but it has some stuff that specifically address lethality (in my opinion). You play sci-fi scoundrels, but the tone is close to Firefly or Star Wars than Alien, and it's one of the only games I've seen where you can actually do stuff like "Shoot to keep their heads down" or even just try to tackle a bunch of enemies in order to give your team a chance to get away. You're often outgunned and outnumbered in the game, so the notion of just murdering your way through most challenges often doesn't make sense.

But here's the really cool thing, re: your current dilemma--depending on how you carry out a job, you might gain Heat points. Enough of those and you become wanted, and have to deal with bounty hunters, law enforcement, etc. So killing during a job is often an easy way to gain Heat. This doesn't mean your characters aren't dangerous, or that they never kill anyone. But if they murder hobo through situations--in defiance of the game's tone--they'll quickly deal with the consequences.

Plus, system-wise, the game doesn't really allow for the kind of atomized John Wick-like combat maneuvers that a lot of games do. If five guys jump you, in Scum and Villainy you don't usually make five separate sets of defense and attack rolls to deal with them. You roll once based on what you're doing (fighting them head-on, probably with little to no effect and high risk of getting hurt, or jumping onto a passing speeder to get away, still risky but more likely to actually get you out of the situation if you roll well, etc.).

So the result of all that is often more about action than violence. Or even if there is violence, it's on the same level, mechanically and narratively, as something like hacking a door to block incoming security, or using deception or a Jedi-like power to defuse the conflict.

Getting killed is also much less of a risk in Scum and Villainy than in some games, I think, but I'm already yammering too much.

That's just one, probably overly specific example of a game that de-emphasizes killing. But they're out there, and, imo, the more indie you go, and the further from D&D, the more likely you might be to find exactly what you're looking for.

 

[dragoner]

I don’t know if anyone else has experienced this dilemma.

Yes, it is one reason I made my own sci-fi setting that is more positive and less violent. Even when playing D&D I find myself as the Rogue or Cleric, and look for the non-violent solution first. Plus, as for games, I am satisfied with a simple die roll for combat, and a few rules any more.

 

[Victor Spieles]

The kicking ass and killing stuff is a staple of D&D. The rule book has hundreds of pages devoted to doing it. D&D is like the John Wick of RPGs. Its paper thin on substance with ass loads of violent deaths for thrills. That feels pretty awesome for a lot folks, but eventually some will see John Wick as the Steven Segal gimmick it is. It's all about preferences and understanding them.

I think you may enjoy exploring other RPGs for a time. I dove into Traveller initially because I wanted some non-Star Wars RPG experience. What I found was a game way more focused on unique problem solving and story telling. No longer was I fixated on getting loot and leveling. I could just explore the character and the world and soak up the immersion. It donned on me how little death occurred and I didnt really miss it at all. Was a refreshing change up.

Some time later, my group wanted to return to traditional dungeon crawl with DCC. I was very reluctant to do so because I didn't really miss it. Or so I thought. I had a blast letting loose with some old school gaming. Kicking in doors, whipping ass, and taking names was pretty fun again.

So, I'd say RPG experiences are like movies. Sometimes you might want to just grab some popcorn and shut off your brain. Other times, you might want to explore deep emotional concepts of humanity and world building. ITs also possible that Marvel is your wheel house and all you want is Whizbang man 17 to come out. You wont know until you explore the possibilities what your preferences are. I know how difficult it can be because D&D is the undisputed king of RPGs, but get out and look around you will be glad you did.

Thanks Payn. Great advice.

 

[J.Quondam]

Yeah, D&D is so combat-centric it's harder to make it less than violent without completely obsolescing 90% of class features. It's not impossible, but it requires some serious player buy-in. It's not really the best game for that. But as others have already noted, there are lots of other games that might fit the bill, some more mainstream than others. Really, if you can imagine a form of fiction, you can probably find a game that emulates it: wrestling drama, soap opera, ghost stories, kids investigation, and on and on. The main issue you encounter would likely be lack of support for those games.

But I think in your case, a bigger issue might just be a clash of play-styles. When one player expects their PC to be plot-armored against death, while another is coming from an old school meat-grinder mentality, that's a big conflict. Likewise when one wants an RP heavy game of intrigue and investigation, while others wants to "kill 'em and take their stuff" with crunchy tactical combat.

So maybe before deciding on a new RPG or genre, it might be helpful to get the expectations aligned of everyone at the table. Without that player buy-in, the game will always be unsatisfying, no matter the set of rules you're using.

 

[Victor Spieles]

Don't hang up your dice just yet!

However, I would fully recommend taking some time off from D&D. I'd echo @payn 's thoughts overall, including about Traveler, but also take a look at some of the Powered by the Apocalypse games that are out there, many of which really reduce the emphasis on combat, and make combat riskier, in a sense--not necessarily that you'll get killed, but that something will go wrong--which can make it a last rather than a first resort.

Also take a look at Scum and Villainy, which is my current obsession, but I think an excellent way of de-emphasizing combat and carnage without totally eliminating it. It's a Forged in the Dark game, so its mechanics are heavily inspired by the Powered by the Apocalypse design approach, but it has some stuff that specifically address lethality (in my opinion). You play sci-fi scoundrels, but the tone is close to Firefly or Star Wars than Alien, and it's one of the only games I've seen where you can actually do stuff like "Shoot to keep their heads down" or even just try to tackle a bunch of enemies in order to give your team a chance to get away. You're often outgunned and outnumbered in the game, so the notion of just murdering your way through most challenges often doesn't make sense.

But here's the really cool thing, re: your current dilemma--depending on how you carry out a job, you might gain Heat points. Enough of those and you become wanted, and have to deal with bounty hunters, law enforcement, etc. So killing during a job is often an easy way to gain Heat. This doesn't mean your characters aren't dangerous, or that they never kill anyone. But if they murder hobo through situations--in defiance of the game's tone--they'll quickly deal with the consequences.

Plus, system-wise, the game doesn't really allow for the kind of atomized John Wick-like combat maneuvers that a lot of games do. If five guys jump you, in Scum and Villainy you don't usually make five separate sets of defense and attack rolls to deal with them. You roll once based on what you're doing (fighting them head-on, probably with little to no effect and high risk of getting hurt, or jumping onto a passing speeder to get away, still risky but more likely to actually get you out of the situation if you roll well, etc.).

So the result of all that is often more about action than violence. Or even if there is violence, it's on the same level, mechanically and narratively, as something like hacking a door to block incoming security, or using deception or a Jedi-like power to defuse the conflict.

Getting killed is also much less of a risk in Scum and Villainy than in some games, I think, but I'm already yammering too much.

That's just one, probably overly specific example of a game that de-emphasizes killing. But they're out there, and, imo, the more indie you go, and the further from D&D, the more likely you might be to find exactly what you're looking for.

Thanks Grendel_Khan. I will definitely look into Scum and Villainy and the Powered by the Apocalypse games.

 

[Victor Spieles]

Yeah, D&D is so combat-centric it's harder to make it less than violent without completely obsolescing 90% of class features. It's not impossible, but it requires some serious player buy-in. It's not really the best game for that. But as others have already noted, there are lots of other games that might fit the bill, some more mainstream than others. Really, if you can imagine a form of fiction, you can probably find a game that emulates it: wrestling drama, soap opera, ghost stories, kids investigation, and on and on. The main issue you encounter would likely be lack of support for those games.

But I think in your case, a bigger issue might just be a clash of play-styles. When one player expects their PC to be plot-armored against death, while another is coming from an old school meat-grinder mentality, that's a big conflict. Likewise when one wants an RP heavy game of intrigue and investigation, while others wants to "kill 'em and take their stuff" with crunchy tactical combat.

So maybe before deciding on a new RPG or genre, it might be helpful to get the expectations aligned of everyone at the table. Without that player buy-in, the game will always be unsatisfying, no matter the set of rules you're using.

J.Quondam I am definitely going to spend more time on finding the right mix of players and aligning on the playstyle and mindset of the RPG before running or playing in my next RPG. Thanks for the advice.​

 

[MGibster]

So I’m about to turn 50. As I approach this new life milestone I’ve started wrestling with killing and deaths in RPGs.

I don’t know if anyone else has experienced this dilemma.

You're not the only one. I also enjoy table top war games such as Warhammer 40k, and more than once in my life I've been a bit bemused that I enjoy playing a game based on something I find horrible in real life.

The incident struck a weird chord emotionally in me. I sat down and looked at all the RPGs on my bookshelves and tried to find something to run where the main solution to in-game encounters is killing the adversary. I also did some searching on Drive Thru RPG for an RPG where exploration and out thinking adversaries is more the premise and focus of the game. It was hard to find RPG options like that.

There are some games like that. In Vampire 5th edition, for the most part, if you get into a fight with another vampire it's not automatically a given that you're going to kill them or they'll kill you. You can get into a whole heap of trouble for killing a vampire without permission. So the system gives you some options on what to do with when you win or if you lose a particular encounter. Death isn't the only option.

But 5th edition D&D gives you the option of knocking your opponents out instead of killing them. I can't recall if that really works with spells though. So if players desire, they can keep their opponents alive instead of chopping limbs off.

Can you play and run Dungeons & Dragons without all the violent encounters and killing?

Well, you can. But I'd argue that all the violent encounters are kind of expected and D&D is built around them.