Moral Dilemma: Killing and Deaths in RPGs

The incident struck a weird chord emotionally in me. I sat down and looked at all the RPGs on my bookshelves and tried to find something to run where the main solution to in-game encounters is killing the adversary. I also did some searching on Drive Thru RPG for an RPG where exploration and out thinking adversaries is more the premise and focus of the game. It was hard to find RPG options like that.

Has anyone else experienced this dilemma?
Is it just time to put away my dice and RPG hobby?

Can you play and run Dungeons & Dragons without all the violent encounters and killing?

You can.

Murder as a solution to problem stems from the origin of the hobby, but it's not set in stone. As a DM, you're empowered to strike down sociopathic characters. You address several different problems.

1. The emotional link between player and character.

Where you see thrill with the danger of dying, some players aren't keen on having their character die. They invest a lot of time and effort in creating a personality for their character and playing it right in their mind, and all this effort is reduced to ashes. They don't really seek the thrill of risking death, but the thrill of escaping death. When you go see a James Bond movie, and in the first 15 minutes of the film there is a firefight, you're 100% sure that James Bond won't be shot and become a cripple forever because the bullet struck too close to the spinal chord. You know he'll barely survive and that's enough. Some players want their characters to survive, not actually risk dying. In some groups, the DM doesn't kill a character without player's approval, prefering situation where they are captured, left for dead in a dire situation and so on. Maybe it's something that should be discussed on session 0 next time.

2. The prevalence of violence and murder as a problem-solving tool in RPGs

This also, you're empowered to change, and not necessarily by dropping the D&D framework. There are a few things you'd need to establish, before deciding if changing system is the way to go. First, I think it's a good idea to narrow down the problem with violence you're encountering.

a) Make violence tolerable

Our societies don't eschew violence, they eschew illegitimate violence. There are very few people who objects to unarmed or non-lethally armed police forces performing arrests, or to the existence of military forces to protect against an invader. If you're feeling ill at ease with the "kill them and take their stuff" approach, that is either glorified or expected in many published material, you might try to create a set-up where the characters are empowered to use violence within a certain context (members of the city watch...) and made accountable. And define what your group is OK with to create the "rules of the Watch". If they aren't into torturing suspects, forbid it. If they aren't into killing, force them to deal non-lethal damage and arrest bad guys instead of killing them, or have them act in self defence, mostly by prohibiting them to INITIATE violent action.

b) Reduce the drawback of not using violence

In many settings, it's complicated to take prisonners. OK, so the Medusa has surrendered and is totally OK to serve a period of community work like cobbling for six month as a punishment... Too bad that half of the village will be turned to stone while the Medusa cobbles the main street... But killing because it's convenient isn't acceptable ; so it's your duty as a DM to reduce the situations where the logistics of not-killing are so burdening that the more expedient solutions of killing people will be prefered by characters (and players, who don't want to hear that the evil wizard performed his world-ending ritual while they were ferrying back a few goblin guards from room A3 to the city for a trial). There are solutions to lessen this burden and incentivize sparing enemies, some of which can fit thematically a setting. It's easier in a mostly settled setting than between to far-away Points of Light, but it can be done. So characters will have the opportunity to use all the cool things in their fighting kits and face the risk of death (even if they know they'll win in the end) and you won't have necessarily to change system.

(This is assuming you're invested in the system and actually want to keep it. If you're just looking for another system, then it's easier to make the choice, and changing system will emphasize the change of playstyle to your players (especially if the above advice is applicable to your new world.).
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
So I’m about to turn 50. As I approach this new life milestone I’ve started wrestling with killing and deaths in RPGs.

I don’t know if anyone else has experienced this dilemma.

A few years ago, when asked to run a game to introduce a couple 13-year-olds to the game, brought this up in my mind. The kids were no strangers to beating up enemies in battle - media is loaded with it. However, in their media, violence is generally used only with justification, and the bad guys do not usually explicitly die.

And while I, as an adult, have no issue with folks who want a game in which life is cheap, I, as a GM, was not going to set that precedent for 13 year olds. So, I made it very clear when bad guys were really bad, by making their actions clear, not relying on labels. And even then, the default was that humanoid opponents were "down, out of the fight" and not explicitly dead.


What fantasy and sci fi RPGs would you recommend as an alternative to the traditional slay the adversary and take their loot model?

So, there are two coming out soon that might be of interest - Avatar Legends: The Role Playing Game had one of the biggest kickstarters recently. It is built to model Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra series, so while there's lot of possible fighting, actually dying is expected to be less of an issue. This is sceduled to come out in Feburary 2022, iirc.

Also in development - Tales of Xadia, an RPG based on The Dragon Prince animated series. There is a playable set of rules and a couple of adventures out, if you want to give it a try. And the game mirrors the series in trying to make character who are not combat-oriented still be effective, and it is very, very hard for PCs to die.

As others have noted, Fate-based games are also good with non-combat resolution, or effective non-violent actions within combat. And by and large, characters are "taken out" or concede a fight, rather than necessarily killed outright.
 

Jmarso

Adventurer
So I’m about to turn 50. As I approach this new life milestone I’ve started wrestling with killing and deaths in RPGs.

I don’t know if anyone else has experienced this dilemma.

Personally, at age 53, I'm not experiencing this at all. I still love a good old 'hack n slash', 'kill monsters and take their stuff' DND campaign. For me it is entertainment, an escape, like watching an action movie or something like that. It doesn't make me feel violent IRL or want to do violence to others, and since it's a game, there's no moral line being cross in terms of actual killing, or anything like that. One thing that does concern me, and I discourage, is younger players wanting to play actively evil characters. I'm not sure why that bothers me when the other stuff doesn't, but that's how it is for me. Kind of weird.
I also stopped DMing a Dungeons & Dragons group recently after one of the younger players had their 5th level character die. The player failed their three death saves and then had an unexpected meltdown reaction to it. I talked to the player after the game and a subsequent conversation days later. But the character’s death just put them off gaming with the group any longer. Which led to an older player in the group quitting the group over the younger players reaction to their character’s death. Now I prefer to run a more role-play character driven exploration and information gathering style of play. But even then most players resort to violence as their first option for dealing with monsters, villains and NPCs.

This sort of thing needs to be addressed before starting a campaign, especially with younger players. They need to understand that it's a game, and sometimes characters die in DnD. It's never wise to get too attached to a character in DnD style RPG's, because they can go suddenly at just about any time. This is why I don't encourage deep backstories at the start of a campaign- keep it light, because there's no point in wasting the time on a deeply involved backstory for squishy first level characters. In earlier versions of the game it was smart to have your next character rolled up and ready to go, because attrition could be quite high. A kid who has trouble dealing with this at the table probably shouldn't be playing the game.
The incident struck a weird chord emotionally in me. I sat down and looked at all the RPGs on my bookshelves and tried to find something to run where the main solution to in-game encounters is not killing the adversary. I also did some searching on Drive Thru RPG for an RPG where exploration and out thinking adversaries is more the premise and focus of the game. It was hard to find RPG options like that.

If you are a Star Trek fan, a Trek game would offer all sorts of chances for non-violent resolution of adventures and puzzles. For the crew of a Federation starship, such resolutions are their stock in trade.
Is it just time to put away my dice and RPG hobby?

Nevah!
Can you play and run Dungeons & Dragons without all the violent encounters and killing?
Possibly, but it's hard. DnD evolved directly from miniature wargames and much of that is still ingrained in its DNA. Payn had a lot of good advice to offer.
 

Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
I initially wondered why play D&D in particular?

but then our approach can change and the game with it if we try.

I cannot stomach playing evil characters anymore. So I don’t. And really my pals don’t either because we have chosen to side step step this option.

In the old days our question was good, evil or neutral when making a group.

I think the system is not ideal for combat avoidance but the biggest thing is probably finding a like minded group.

good luck and play what is uplifting! We have buckets of blood in our games but it’s in service of saving innocents and killing hags etc.

betrayal and cruelty don’t cut it for me anymore
 

Victor Spieles

Explorer
Personally, at age 53, I'm not experiencing this at all. I still love a good old 'hack n slash', 'kill monsters and take their stuff' DND campaign. For me it is entertainment, an escape, like watching an action movie or something like that. It doesn't make me feel violent IRL or want to do violence to others, and since it's a game, there's no moral line being cross in terms of actual killing, or anything like that. One thing that does concern me, and I discourage, is younger players wanting to play actively evil characters. I'm not sure why that bothers me when the other stuff doesn't, but that's how it is for me. Kind of weird.


This sort of thing needs to be addressed before starting a campaign, especially with younger players. They need to understand that it's a game, and sometimes characters die in DnD. It's never wise to get too attached to a character in DnD style RPG's, because they can go suddenly at just about any time. This is why I don't encourage deep backstories at the start of a campaign- keep it light, because there's no point in wasting the time on a deeply involved backstory for squishy first level characters. In earlier versions of the game it was smart to have your next character rolled up and ready to go, because attrition could be quite high. A kid who has trouble dealing with this at the table probably shouldn't be playing the game.


If you are a Star Trek fan, a Trek game would offer all sorts of chances for non-violent resolution of adventures and puzzles. For the crew of a Federation starship, such resolutions are their stock in trade.


Nevah!

Possibly, but it's hard. DnD evolved directly from miniature wargames and much of that is still ingrained in its DNA. Payn had a lot of good advice to offer.
Thank Jmarso. Lots of good advice in your post. Definitely going to look to other RPG options. Star Trek is one of the few RPGs I've never gotten the opportunity to play between friends and cons. Always a favorite of mine as a sci fi watcher. The older I get the more I actually enjoy Star Trek over Star Wars.
 

BookTenTiger

He / Him
I have felt the same way since I began playing. Back in high school I used to have nightmares about being forced to kill people because they were orcs. (See? My subconscious was with the zeitgeist way before I was!)

Though I have fun with the combat part of D&D, honestly the high amount of killing is the big sour note for me. My own experience of the game would be better if the default end of a combat was "defeat" instead of "death."

There's something baked into D&D that makes monsters surrendering or running away just not as satisfying as killing them. My players will often go out of their way to hunt down a retreating foe, even if it's just one goblin or even a single crab (this happened!).

I think killing things is very foundational to D&D, but it doesn't have to be. I'd love to see more adventures, like Wild Beyond the Witchlight, that don't require killing to move the plot forward.
 

Victor Spieles

Explorer
A few years ago, when asked to run a game to introduce a couple 13-year-olds to the game, brought this up in my mind. The kids were no strangers to beating up enemies in battle - media is loaded with it. However, in their media, violence is generally used only with justification, and the bad guys do not usually explicitly die.

And while I, as an adult, have no issue with folks who want a game in which life is cheap, I, as a GM, was not going to set that precedent for 13 year olds. So, I made it very clear when bad guys were really bad, by making their actions clear, not relying on labels. And even then, the default was that humanoid opponents were "down, out of the fight" and not explicitly dead.




So, there are two coming out soon that might be of interest - Avatar Legends: The Role Playing Game had one of the biggest kickstarters recently. It is built to model Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra series, so while there's lot of possible fighting, actually dying is expected to be less of an issue. This is sceduled to come out in Feburary 2022, iirc.

Also in development - Tales of Xadia, an RPG based on The Dragon Prince animated series. There is a playable set of rules and a couple of adventures out, if you want to give it a try. And the game mirrors the series in trying to make character who are not combat-oriented still be effective, and it is very, very hard for PCs to die.

As others have noted, Fate-based games are also good with non-combat resolution, or effective non-violent actions within combat. And by and large, characters are "taken out" or concede a fight, rather than necessarily killed outright.
Umbran I think FATE based gaming may be the way forward for me. That way everyone at the table is aligned and in agreement on play style and encounter resolutions.
 

Ixal

Hero
D&D is 90% about fighting and killing while the rules for non combat action resolution is paper thin.
You really need to look for other system which at least gives you more options to resolve things other than fighting. Even Shadowrun offers more ways to tackle problems than D&D does.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Umbran I think FATE based gaming may be the way forward for me. That way everyone at the table is aligned and in agreement on play style and encounter resolutions.

The most fun gaming I've had in the past year and a half has been a Fate Accelerated version of Space: 1889, so I can definitely see that workign out quite well. Good luck!
 

BookTenTiger

He / Him
This conversation makes me think of the Dogs in the Vineyard RPG. I've only run a handful of games, but it contains three modes of conflict which can escalate, something like social, physical, and deadly.

I know this will get a slew of "just play another RPG" replies, but it would be interesting to try and apply that kind of escalation mechanic to D&D.

In a traditional dungeon setting, fights might escalate through three phases:

Trial (using Stealth, Intimidation, or Trickery to defeat or circumvent foes, low risk of injury)

Combat (using weapons and spells, HP can be lost, but defeat isn't death)

Deadly Combat (high risk of death)

Dogs in the Vineyard has different mechanics and rules to differentiate the phases of conflict. I wonder what that could look like in D&D?
 

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