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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5580799" data-attributes="member: 82106">The funny thing is, Balesir, I think you've actually advanced every argument for the position you stand against quite admirably.If items that are 'over the top' but not 'full artifacts' are a useful part of the game, then why not have rules for them (IE rare items)? If some items are going to be problematic in numbers, then restrict them, like rarity does. Sure, the designers COULD in theory go on to list a long laundry list of different rare plants, monster body parts, etc needed to make all these various items, but those are STORY elements, so why not leave them to the DM? I'd be all for a more in-depth discussion of this topic in some DM material, but it isn't a requirement to have a perfectly serviceable item rarity system. I'm honestly not at all understanding why you feel that this MUST exist for such a system to work. The rules already state flatly that such items require rare ingredients etc to make.I disagree that I'm taking away something that is a player resource. The game is simply being updated to a slightly different approach. The rules are clear when players begin the game, or if the game is changed during play then the players surely always have the option to object if they wish. Nor do I think that every little detail of the game has to be specified up front. That realistically never happens. Part of the fun is discovering how the DM has crafted the world you will be interacting with. What has the function of monetary treasure EVER been in any edition of the game? Why suddenly in 4e does it have to have one specific purpose and no other? Actually I find this requirement of 4e to be rather limiting. Players in all of my AD&D games were quite happy to amass treasure. It can serve many purposes besides being an 'ingredient' used to power up your character. And the things you dismiss as 'just color' are the most interesting and fun elements of the game. Building a stronghold, acquiring a ship, any of 100 other things are actually the things that are most likely to allow the players to drive their character's story forward and make it interesting and help them create buy-in to the story and the world. Treasure isn't REQUIRED in order to do this, but it is a great tool.The assertion that an item is 'broken' and has to be 'fixed' simply because it isn't suitable to have many instances of it in the game is just wrong. I don't know any other way to put it. I rarely use that term, but in this case I can't see any other adequate way to put it. The whole history of 4e items is replete with instances where genuinely interesting and fun items have been 'fixed' into utter irrelevance because of this issue. An issue which is fully addressed by rarity and NOT addressed by any other solution I have ever seen proposed. Item rarity is an elegant solution to a serious design issue with 4e. Ultimately I think you bought into the original PHB1 design and you're just not really looking hard at its flaws and the advantages of this change. Another dimension WAS needed for items. It is all well to say that powerful items are 'high level', but in 4e levels don't really mean that much. They're a great way to move the players on to new and interesting things and elegantly evolve the theme of the game, but you said yourself that another variable was needed. I just don't see a convincing counter-argument to the obvious advantages of rarity. You can contend that giving the DM a hand in item selection is taking away player's 'right' to build whatever character they want, but I don't buy that either. 4e has a VAST array of player options already. Surely the players will still have plenty of opportunities to pick and choose what items they use, buy, quest for, etc. Instead of this process being a bland process of acquiring generic 'treasure', chanting for an hour, and having the exact item they need the whole process is much richer and more closely integrated into the overall story now. When your character DOES get that flaming sword now it really is interesting and meaningful, not just "I got 3,600 gp worth of treasure."</blockquote>

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