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<blockquote data-quote="Sacrosanct" data-source="post: 7206849" data-attributes="member: 15700">We're not talking about reliance on other classes.&nbsp; We're talking about hit point availability.&nbsp; And the 4e PC has WAY more HP than a 5e one does, over an adventuring day.&nbsp; If a 160hp 4e fighter has 13 healing surges, that's roughly 520 extra hit points.&nbsp; A 5e fighter has about 110 due to hit dice.&nbsp; Additionally, there are many ways in which a 4e fighter can use healing surges in combat, where hit dice can't be used.&nbsp; So even if a 5e fighter has 20 extra max hp, the 4e fighter still has a ton more that are actually used; his HP resource pool is much greater.So from a pure HP resource context, 5e's HP are down from the previous edition.&nbsp; Both from monsters, and from classes.&nbsp; And by a large amount.Your second part of your quote doesn't make sense.&nbsp; 5e doesn't have HP bloat.&nbsp; At lower levels even without healing surges, 4e classes start with more HP.&nbsp; And even at higher levels, the difference is not significant at all--again ignoring healing surges which I don't think you can because it adds to the total HP resource of that class.&nbsp; In 4e, characters had access to more hit points than 5e.&nbsp; That's objectively true.&nbsp; So with less total available hit points, you're saying 5e is less challenging.&nbsp; That seems counter intuitive.&nbsp; Another poster above says the exact opposite of you, that his 4e fighter felt invincible while his 5e one felt challenged even at high levels.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sacrosanct, post: 7206849, member: 15700"] We're not talking about reliance on other classes. We're talking about hit point availability. And the 4e PC has WAY more HP than a 5e one does, over an adventuring day. If a 160hp 4e fighter has 13 healing surges, that's roughly 520 extra hit points. A 5e fighter has about 110 due to hit dice. Additionally, there are many ways in which a 4e fighter can use healing surges in combat, where hit dice can't be used. So even if a 5e fighter has 20 extra max hp, the 4e fighter still has a ton more that are actually used; his HP resource pool is much greater. So from a pure HP resource context, 5e's HP are down from the previous edition. Both from monsters, and from classes. And by a large amount. Your second part of your quote doesn't make sense. 5e doesn't have HP bloat. At lower levels even without healing surges, 4e classes start with more HP. And even at higher levels, the difference is not significant at all--again ignoring healing surges which I don't think you can because it adds to the total HP resource of that class. In 4e, characters had access to more hit points than 5e. That's objectively true. So with less total available hit points, you're saying 5e is [I]less[/I] challenging. That seems counter intuitive. Another poster above says the exact opposite of you, that his 4e fighter felt invincible while his 5e one felt challenged even at high levels. [/QUOTE]

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