More powerful spells at first level?

[osarusan]

[Edit: I changed the title of this post to match the topic better... as I wrote the original post in a hurry and just threw that title in. It used to be "How do you deal with spell differences?"]




I'm really enjoying using EOM in my game. The flexibility is fantastic, and all of my players absolutely love it.

However, one thing I'm running into snares with is balancing dungeons now that my players have access to abilities at low level that were previoulsy reserved for higher levels. For example, teleport used to be a decently high level spell so that players couldn't cast it around freely... but players in EOM can easily use Move Space to teleport the party into separate areas of the dungeon, bypassing traps, rooms, etc. We may not all expect the PCs to enter the dungeon through the front door at low levels... but it causes problems when they can teleport up or down into different levels of the dungeon and bypass entire areas... effectively giving them 100% control over how to go through the dungeon.

It created a problem in my game last week where the PCs used Move Space to teleport into the main room of a small keep rather than fight their way in through the front door, and (I'm in a game right now, on a food break) it's about to cause trouble as they're about to enter a dungeon and may teleport up a level to the last room in the dungeon without even realizing it.

Obviously one answer is "Don't make your dungeons so linear." But it's hard to make a game where the whole place is entirely free-handed. Also, it takes the fun out of it for the DM and for the players when the game is so anticlimactic that they can fight the end guy first-thing... Sorry if this sounds rushed, like I said I'm in game and actually am rushing a little bit.

Anyway, other than making all of my dungeon floors over 30-feet apart (I don't want to completely *negate* the use of Move Space... just make it less game-kill), what can I do? I want this dungeon to be fun and challenging, without having to just tell my players "oh, there happens to be an antimagic field there..." or "oh it just somehow doesn't work now."

So what do you guys do to prevent low-level characters from becoming so powerful? Or did I misread the rules?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Intel Checks..

In order for the group to teleport, the caster must make an INT to arrive where planned. Failure puts them off course by 1D10 x 1D10 %

For a 'go 30' that away' would be set at DC 20.

Thier end desitination could be in a solid object, in which case they take 1D10 points of damage every round until the caster makes a DC 20 INT check to 'redirect' them.

At low levels, Teleporting hither and thither can kill them..

Of course, this brings up the porblem with Scry + Teleport a bit earlier in the game, but most BBEG's turf should have an anti-Scry set up.

Hope this helps!


edit = Dont forget, old castles/keep.. and most dungeons dont really fit nicely on a 5'x5' grid. The players may see teh map from a birds eye POV, but the characters should probably need Survival checks to determine which direction is which. DC 15 should be about right for being precise enough for a room layout... still run the risk of landing in a table or something.

 

[osarusan]

well the problem comes from arrow slits, windows, and things like that... since you can bestow the spell upon everyone in your party, or even as an area effect. It becomes more powerful than dimension door, and that was not even available to such low-level casters. (still in game, sorry for quick reply... managed to convince them not to teleport through the arrow slits on the 2nd story, not so worried about secret doors, but still worried about entire volumes of stone or different levels)

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

HR option

You could HR that Move Space area effects require the Discriminating enhnacement, limiting the number of legal targets to the Caster Level....

Technically, without that all targets within the spells area would teleport, unattended objects like dirt, rocks, plants... etc.

Anyway, I hope the game went well!

 

[osarusan]

Well, requiring discriminating is not all that helpful, because the caster can easily just cast the spell on every party member instead, and then they all can teleport.

And like I said, I don't really want to impose more house rules or cripple the spells for the players. But what would be a good defense against this for a castle/dungeon/etc. so the PC's can't do this in every instance.

For example, if a keep has windows or even arrow slits, the players will know there is a hollow space beyond and can pretty much safely teleport in to them. There still is an INT check, and that is enough to deter the players from doing this for minor things... but when first entering a dungeon, who *wouldn't* want to get a good head start and teleport in if the option is available to them?

But as far as I can see, there's no way to "teleport-proof" a place. This argument comes up in standard D&D, but the rationale is usually that teleport is a high enough level spell that there aren't too many wizards who can cast it enough to bring a whole party into a dungeon/castle/keep and mess things up.

However, allowing even level 1 characters to easily bypass a castle wall (move space 0/gen 1) seems to be a bit unbalancing to me. True, it's not as useful once *in* the dungeon, as tunnels twist and turn... but for breaking and entering buildings, and finding alternate ways into dungeons, my players have really been starting to press the rules. I've managed to prevent them from completely throwing me out of my plans thanks to some quick thinking, but it certainly scared me... and I want to be better prepared in the future should characters try to do this again.

I really don't want to "beat the players" here, or nerf a spell that can be really fun... but I'm looking for some kind of countermeasure that can be used... afterall, if every lvl 1 wizard can potentially zip in and out of any building/dungeon/house/you-name-it on the planet, there must be some way to counterbalance this??

I guess if nobody can think of anything, I'll make some sort of house rule... but I'd rather find a way to defeat this problem using the rules, rather than making up a new one.



Btw, the game went well thanks. I convinced them to use the front entrance to the dungeon by putting mysterious archer-looking figures in the windows (phew!) and plans were not ruined... Sorry for being a little to wordy with this post, but I just gamed for 12 hours straight. ;-)

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Some light reading might help...

Grab Steven Brust - Vlad Taltos novels. His setting is high magic where Raise Dead and Teleport are relatively common.

An easy deterent is the low cost of Divination/Alarm type spells. Use of teleporting could set off an alarm, letting the guards know that someone just appeared in a protected area. This would be a common sense protection against magic using thieves.

A second deterent, which you have already used, is that characters cannot act immediately upon thier arrival {using the rules from Dimension Door}, meaning they can never gain surprise, and may be flat-footed against a quick witted guard.

The third deterent is the INT check to miss where you are aiming for.

A forth deterent is similar looking rooms... you say "what the H$ll?" Failure of the INT check sends you to a similarly appearing location. Perhaps the BBEG built a room in the middle of his place that looks exactly like his lair.. then emptied it of air and sealed it shut, permanently.
Okay, maybe you wont want to go that far, as most characters would not be able to survive the sudden lack of breathing with no exits.

All that being said, perhaps your planning adventures should start assuming alternate entry points. Non-linear adventures are harder to do, more so if you are handling 12 hour sessions already {lucky bastard} Let the players revel in shortcutting some of the minion encounters, and even give them XP for 'defeating' them.... then have a BBEG counter them in a nasty way. Its not 'dm vs player' or trying to beat them.. its roleplaying the BBEG to his/her potential. Anyone living in a world where the enemy can teleport in from across the continent will have some means to hinder this.


I think I will institute the HR to require Discriminating.. but not have a MP cost attached. As well as define that the characters cannot act the turn they arrive ala Dimension Door.
BTW, thanks for helping me mull over this issue before it becomes an issue IMC

 

[osarusan]

Thanks for the advice. I'll start putting these in my dungeons from now on. The trick is to make sure published adventures are EOM-safe. ;-) That's where I got thrown off on this one.

So EOM is changing the way I create dungeons, and that is not a bad thing. ;-)

 

[astriemer]

However, one thing I'm running into snares with is balancing dungeons now that my players have access to abilities at low level that were previoulsy reserved for higher levels. For example, teleport used to be a decently high level spell so that players couldn't cast it around freely... but players in EOM can easily use Move Space to teleport the party into separate areas of the dungeon, bypassing traps, rooms, etc. We may not all expect the PCs to enter the dungeon through the front door at low levels... but it causes problems when they can teleport up or down into different levels of the dungeon and bypass entire areas... effectively giving them 100% control over how to go through the dungeon.

As PS mentioned, the problem within the dungeon could be ameliorated with requireing survival checks to determine distance and direction.

Obviously one answer is "Don't make your dungeons so linear." But it's hard to make a game where the whole place is entirely free-handed. Also, it takes the fun out of it for the DM and for the players when the game is so anticlimactic that they can fight the end guy first-thing... Sorry if this sounds rushed, like I said I'm in game and actually am rushing a little bit.

Anyway, other than making all of my dungeon floors over 30-feet apart (I don't want to completely *negate* the use of Move Space... just make it less game-kill), what can I do? I want this dungeon to be fun and challenging, without having to just tell my players "oh, there happens to be an antimagic field there..." or "oh it just somehow doesn't work now."

So what do you guys do to prevent low-level characters from becoming so powerful? Or did I misread the rules?

With Move Space being available at such a low level the economics of defense changes for that world. Anti-teleport zone magic items (Dispel Magic v. Move Space) and spells would quickly become more common as well, particularly for those areas that would be likely targets.

Anti-Entrance Stone
This magic item prevents the use of commonly available spells to secure entrance to an area that you want guarded. It protects a small room and as it prevents a spell, it sets off an alarm to indicate an intrusion attempt.
Targeted Dispel Magic versus Move Space, Scry, Move Earth (1 MP each). The creator has 8 ranks in Dispel Magic. (SR 19 or +9 Scry DC)
Contingent Create Sound (5 MP)
Total MP 9 (8 + 1 for duration).
81,000 gp base value

While that appears expensive, any well funded keep should have a few of them in strategic locations.

Alternately, you could create a one-use version of the item that does the same thing (without the alarm, it just disintegrates) for 180 gp, but must be purchased repeatedly once its used. That is easily affordable by BBEGs and common castle/dungeon defenders.

As the PCs get higher level, have a higher level caster create the blocking stone (technically the cost won't go up as the SR and scry will go up as the creator's Dispel Magic skill goes up, though conceptually, a higher level mage would probably be able to charge more).

I would also think that if your PCs are spending MP to cast this spell repeatedly (to get all the party moved at once), shouldn't they be running out of MP pretty quickly.

 

[Staffan]

I'm thinking... teleporting into solid objects is bad, right? So, wouldn't most defensive positions have lots of strings descending from the ceiling? That way, someone teleporting in there would find himself teleporting into a lot of quite solid strings.

 

[osarusan]

With Move Space being available at such a low level the economics of defense changes for that world. Anti-teleport zone magic items (Dispel Magic v. Move Space) and spells would quickly become more common as well, particularly for those areas that would be likely targets.

Anti-Entrance Stone
This magic item prevents the use of commonly available spells to secure entrance to an area that you want guarded. It protects a small room and as it prevents a spell, it sets off an alarm to indicate an intrusion attempt.
Targeted Dispel Magic versus Move Space, Scry, Move Earth (1 MP each). The creator has 8 ranks in Dispel Magic. (SR 19 or +9 Scry DC)
Contingent Create Sound (5 MP)
Total MP 9 (8 + 1 for duration).
81,000 gp base value

This one is wonderful!

I don't know how, but I completely forgot about the targetted antimagic effect. Being so cheap, it's the perfect spell for foiling those weaker mages. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'm lucky it hasn't become a problem in game yet, so I can start putting these stones into important locations. Thanks a billion!