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<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 6380738" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>I completely agree on all accounts! But you're missing what I'm getting at, I think, by focusing on the trees (specific words and phrases) rather than the forest of what I'm trying say (general ideas, essence). Also, exceptions to generalizations don't negate the validity of generalizations; there are always exceptions.</p><p></p><p>Of course there are great movies and bad books, but that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the way the medium interacts with the mind, in particular the imagination. <em>Excalibur--</em>which also one of my very favorite movies, with multiple layers of meaning--is a profoundly exquisite movie, that deals with themes that most books don't touch upon, but it still interacts with the imagination in a different way: it shows you images, while books ask you to, at the least, co-generate images.</p><p></p><p>But perhaps some of my analogies don't work, or like all analogies can be broken if how they're being used isn't understood. <em>Excalibur </em>is certainly not junk food, not pop music. But it isn't a home-cooked meal - I'm not making it (although you could say I <em>am </em>making the meaning that I derive from it, but this isn't exactly the same as the imaginative process I'm talking about).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, you're teasing out one "tree" (artistic sophistication) and missing the "forest." I am not saying that all TTRPGs are artistically sophisticated, nor that all video games aren't. Actually, I've seen incredible craftsmanship and sophistication from video games - but almost always in their design, their creation, not in their <em>participation. </em>That is what I'm focusing on - the participation, what it entails for the participant, what aspects of (and to what degree) their imaginations are engaged with the process.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This might be a separate topic and I think has to do with basic assumptions about the role of the GM and players, which differ depending upon the game, group, and individuals involved. You seem to imply that "emphasis on GM authority" is, if not a bad thing, then certainly inferior to a more "shared fiction" experience. I don't think that can be said, or at least--like you point out by comparing quality cinema with poor fiction--there are ranges within each, and it ends up being a matter of comparing apples to oranges.</p><p></p><p>That said, I think you could make an argument that a game in which players have a more active role in the co-creation of the world and game experience is more along the lines of the participation that I'm talking about above, but I don't necessarily think this is inherently a superior form of RPGing. I think that there are types of games and experiences that work well with a more shared approach, but that for most people the "classic D&D" game involves a stronger degree of GM authority than you seem to prefer.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 6380738, member: 59082"] I completely agree on all accounts! But you're missing what I'm getting at, I think, by focusing on the trees (specific words and phrases) rather than the forest of what I'm trying say (general ideas, essence). Also, exceptions to generalizations don't negate the validity of generalizations; there are always exceptions. Of course there are great movies and bad books, but that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the way the medium interacts with the mind, in particular the imagination. [I]Excalibur--[/I]which also one of my very favorite movies, with multiple layers of meaning--is a profoundly exquisite movie, that deals with themes that most books don't touch upon, but it still interacts with the imagination in a different way: it shows you images, while books ask you to, at the least, co-generate images. But perhaps some of my analogies don't work, or like all analogies can be broken if how they're being used isn't understood. [I]Excalibur [/I]is certainly not junk food, not pop music. But it isn't a home-cooked meal - I'm not making it (although you could say I [I]am [/I]making the meaning that I derive from it, but this isn't exactly the same as the imaginative process I'm talking about). Again, you're teasing out one "tree" (artistic sophistication) and missing the "forest." I am not saying that all TTRPGs are artistically sophisticated, nor that all video games aren't. Actually, I've seen incredible craftsmanship and sophistication from video games - but almost always in their design, their creation, not in their [I]participation. [/I]That is what I'm focusing on - the participation, what it entails for the participant, what aspects of (and to what degree) their imaginations are engaged with the process. This might be a separate topic and I think has to do with basic assumptions about the role of the GM and players, which differ depending upon the game, group, and individuals involved. You seem to imply that "emphasis on GM authority" is, if not a bad thing, then certainly inferior to a more "shared fiction" experience. I don't think that can be said, or at least--like you point out by comparing quality cinema with poor fiction--there are ranges within each, and it ends up being a matter of comparing apples to oranges. That said, I think you could make an argument that a game in which players have a more active role in the co-creation of the world and game experience is more along the lines of the participation that I'm talking about above, but I don't necessarily think this is inherently a superior form of RPGing. I think that there are types of games and experiences that work well with a more shared approach, but that for most people the "classic D&D" game involves a stronger degree of GM authority than you seem to prefer. [/QUOTE]
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