Most published adventures seem very cartoonish to me and designed for players who are 16.

[Celebrim]

I think you're getting your British Civil Wars messed up here. The Stuarts were the dynasty that fought the Civil War - i.e. Oliver Cromwell. The Wars of the Roses were the ones involving the Lancasters (and Richard III).

Ahh, right. Dopey me.

I meant to say:

Stark = York
Lannister = Lancaster

Tyrion is still Richard.

 

[evilbob]

Err... not only did Shakespeare cover all the same themes, but to a fairly great extent the source material and the stories the two authors were telling were the same.

Sorry, I completely disagree. Martin's themes are basically: murder, rape, and more murder and rape. I find his books to have absolutely nothing in common with Shakespeare - or history, for that matter. But I will happily end my anti-Martin rant right there as it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, or really anything.

 

[Celebrim]

Sorry, I completely disagree. Martin's themes are basically: murder, rape, and more murder and rape.

Have you ever read MacBeth or Hamlet? Titus Andronicus? Othello?

Shakespeare's plays have a tendency to end in blood - Hamlet is properly staged at the end as a bloody mess IMO and MacBeth could be staged as a bloody mess all the way through. And even in the ones that don't end in blood - say 'Much Ado About Nothing' - there is that moment in the play were you realize everything could end in blood and the story is perilously poised between murderous tragedy and a wedding.

If you mean to say, you don't like Martin - I don't like Martin's works either. He's a bad writer lush in purple prose to the point of tedium. If you mean to say, Shakespeare has been here and done this all better, then I agree with that too. If you want to say that Martin's a talented hack, I'd be willing to go their too. (Though, granted, some say that of Shakespeare as well.)

But there is a lot more in the story that parallels the War of the Roses than just the names Starke and Lannister match up with York and Lancaster, or the fact that the most attractive Lannister is a dwarf, or the fact that his map looks like England + Scotland, or that neither house is likely to end up with the throne in the end (I'm betting on the Tyrell's, since they match up with the Tudor's that did end up with the Throne).

 

[delericho]

Stark = York
Lannister = Lancaster

Tyrion is still Richard.

Yep. And the Wall, presumably, is Hadrian's, the wildlings are the Scots, there are extra Vikings (the Greyjoys), and presumably in that universe Odegai Khan didn't die before his people conquered Europe.

Or something like that.

Martin's themes are basically: murder, rape, and more murder and rape.

Surely Martin's themes are... I dunno, something to do with ambition, short-sightedness in the face of impending disaster, and the inevitable descent of any open-ended fantasy epic into unfocussed mush?

But there is a lot more in the story that parallels the War of the Roses than just the names Starke and Lannister match up with York and Lancaster, or the fact that the most attractive Lannister is a dwarf, or the fact that his map looks like England + Scotland, or that neither house is likely to end up with the throne in the end (I'm betting on the Tyrell's, since they match up with the Tudor's that did end up with the Throne).

Ah, thank you. I was trying to work out who were the Tudors, and couldn't quite put my finger on it.