Most published adventures seem very cartoonish to me and designed for players who are 16.

[Mallus]

The games I ran when I was in my late teens/early 20s resembled -- loosely -- the intrigue-heavy plots of someone like George R. R. Martin. There were no dungeons, there were no dragons.

The game I'm running now -- at 44 -- features weird monster-killing, slapstick violence comedy, dungeons, magic item-based sex change, PC mutations, and the most god-awful puns my brain can generate (like the junkie-monk henchman, Golden Arm). Oh, and last session, the PCs killed a green dragon. It's definitely a cartoon.

So it goes...

edit: though, to be fair, the successor campaign we're planning is quite different. We'll see what it turns out to be in actual play.

 

[Celebrim]

I would never want to participate in a game written or run by George Martin...

I wouldn't either. My problem would be too much squick. I've got no problems with the subject matter, which is really no worse than Shakespeare, but sometimes have problems with how he handles it.

But I suspect for most people, the biggest problem is the rate of character turn over and the fact that almost nobody survives to hit even 3rd level. I've got no real problem with that, but do feel that the proper scale for a player within a dynastic story like SoIF is not a character but a dynasty. So, you wouldn't just be playing Jon Snow or something, but the entire house of Stark. A player has to create a new 'character' only if he's deprived of all his heirs, and the call of play would probably be something along the lines of 2nd edition D&D's experiments with dynastic play in Bloodright.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Is it just me or are most RPG adventures written for kids? I'm 40 and have been playing for 25 years and I am looking for an adult RPG adventure. I wish to God that George Martin wrote RPG adventures! I like political intrigue, violence, double crossing, twisted thinking and occasional drug use and the such. Maybe Tom Clancy would have been a great RPG author as well. Is anyone else out there fed up with all of the adventures on the market that do not appeal to players over 16? Why are there no authors writing campaigns like The Enemy Within any more? Lets get the Call of Cuthulu authors to dedicate some time to fantasy !

D&D is at its heart a power fantasy of zero to hero and saving the world. The Enemy Within was written for a much darker game than D&D - and casts a long shadow because it sticks out like a sore thumb as not fitting.

But seriously, have a look at Apocalypse World - it might well be exactly the game you are looking for. (Or it might be exactly wrong for the game you are looking for).

 

[Celebrim]

The games I ran when I was in my late teens/early 20s resembled -- loosely -- the intrigue-heavy plots of someone like George R. R. Martin.

During my late teens/early 20's, I was a player in a very intrigue heavy highly political game where mass combat resolution between clashing armies and navies was about as common as slaying monsters, and where political alliances, favorable marriages, and the birth of heirs was like getting awesome magical items in other campaigns.

I don't even think I could begin to run that game now. The scale is just too big. My character sheet in that campaign hit 150 or so pages, once you included henchmen, followers, retainers, spell lists, equipment, owned property, stats for naval vessels, etc. Managing my character's income, property, and followers was as much work a being a DM in some campaigns. One siege, featuring 60000+ combatants divided in to 6000 unit tokens and a massive double walled fortress city that was laid out to scale filling a two car garage, once required 40 hours of basically uninterrupted play to resolve. It was epic. It was awesome. But it was something only young people can do.

 

[evilbob]

I wouldn't either. My problem would be too much squick. I've got no problems with the subject matter, which is really no worse than Shakespeare, but sometimes have problems with how he handles it.

I don't know: to me, George Martin's land is quite a far cry from the world of Shakespeare. I don't think the bard tackled any of the major themes in Martin's work...

For me it's more about: would I want to exist in a world peopled exclusively by horrible, murdering sociopaths? Or one of constant, overt, and often violent sexism? I'm sure the food would be good though... or at least well-described?

More to the point: I can understand the author's complaint about the difficulty of finding pre-written adventures with mature themes. I think someone else has pretty much addressed this already, though: anything can have mature themes if you wish it. It's much easier to add than to take away. Since different groups have different standards of what is acceptable and what is not (re: George Martin discussion), it's easier to lay down a simple theme and let GMs expand upon that in the direction they see fit.

To say it another way: there's little reason you can't take the most 16-yr-old targeted adventure ever written and turn it into the world of Cthulu or George Martin with little mechanical trouble.

 

[evilbob]

My character sheet in that campaign hit 150 or so pages, once you included henchmen, followers, retainers, spell lists, equipment, owned property, stats for naval vessels, etc. ... One siege, featuring 60000+ combatants divided in to 6000 unit tokens and a massive double walled fortress city that was laid out to scale filling a two car garage, once required 40 hours of basically uninterrupted play to resolve. It was epic. It was awesome. But it was something only young people can do.

HA! That DOES sound amazing! Kudos to you for 1) an epic story, and 2) the realization that only the young have that luxury.

 

[delericho]

I like... double crossing...

With regard to this specifically, betrayals are actually really difficult to incorporate into published adventures. The problem is that if the betrayal comes out of nowhere, then the players will (rightly, IMO) cry foul. But if the adventure does make sure to include sufficient clues for the betrayal not to come out of nowhere, that in turn opens up the possibility that the PCs will rumble the NPC's agenda long before the planned betrayal. And that creates logistical problems for writing the rest of the adventure - you have to account not only for the planned path "NPC accompanies them until here and then betrays", but also for all those points where the PCs might pre-empt that and off the NPC.

IMX, it's better for the DM himself to add NPC betrayals to a pre-gen module (if they're wanted), rather than for the adventure writer to try to add them.

This really has more to do with how you present the material than the subject matter of a modern adventure novel.

Let's put it this way. You can present the story of Snow White in Disney terms, so that its understandable to a children and works with them on their level and gets them to think without really terrifying or disturbing them (much), and that's perfectly acceptable.

Or you can look at the story of Snow White and say, "This is the story of a girl who is being abused by her mother/gaurdian, who ultimately will attempt to murder her, and there is really nothing she can do about because she is the legal chattel of her gaurdian. Her only hope within the structure of the sexist society she lives in is to find a man willing to take her under his protection, and become his possession, and hopefully not abuse her as much as she has been - and she'll do pretty much anything to achieve that. Eventually, she gets 'rescued' by a man who is sexually molesting her.

Your average D&D module is about as much of a kid's story as 'Hansel and Gretel', 'The Goose Girl', etc.

And if all you want is gore and grit, there is nothing dainty about 'The Skinsaw Murders'.

And, in fact...

I like political intrigue, violence, double crossing, twisted thinking...

To a large extent, these may well be better served not with a pre-gen adventure as such, but rather a sandbox-y campaign guide - something like the excellent "Chicago by Night", or even "Neverwinter" - something that presents the setting, outlines the factions, details of the current intrigues, etc, but which then leaves it for the DM and players to build their own storylines on top of that.

 

[Lwaxy]

But it was something only young people can do.

Not young. GMing 2 games like that currently.

 

[Celebrim]

I don't know: to me, George Martin's land is quite a far cry from the world of Shakespeare. I don't think the bard tackled any of the major themes in Martin's work...

Err... not only did Shakespeare cover all the same themes, but to a fairly great extent the source material and the stories the two authors were telling were the same. Both Shakespeare and Martin are inspired by and writing stories about the War of the Roses and its aftermath. Martin of course is taking greater liberty with the source material than Shakespeare, but Shakespeare - for some very good reasons - wasn't exactly writing history either.

It's pretty simple:

Starke = Stuart
Lannister = Lancaster

I'm pretty sure Tyrion is Richard.

For me it's more about: would I want to exist in a world peopled exclusively by horrible, murdering sociopaths? Or one of constant, overt, and often violent sexism? I'm sure the food would be good though... or at least well-described?

Most people wouldn't. Alas, we don't get to choose.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Starke = Stuart
Lannister = Lancaster

I'm pretty sure Tyrion is Richard.

I think you're getting your British Civil Wars messed up here. The Stuarts were the dynasty that fought the Civil War - i.e. Oliver Cromwell. The Wars of the Roses were the ones involving the Lancasters (and Richard III).