Mouth of Sauron
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Celebrim
Legend
Like you question regarding Shelob, the real answer to this one is find a power level comfortable to the level of play you want to use in your campaign. MERP is famous for giving essentially every named character epic stats and every mentioned item large bonuses as a weapon or channeling device. Some D20 writers seem to agree and place the Mouth of Sauron as a Epic Level Fighter/Sorcerer. Others perfer a low level of power, and make tMoS no more than 9th level. It is really entirely up to you.
My preferences in a campaign are probably created by early exposure to GG's World of Greyhawk, were a 9th level character really was special and not every other bartender and characters above 15th level were virtually unheard of and certainly world renowned legendary figurers. If your preferences were formed by exposure to the Forgotten Realms then you probably feel 9th level characters are common place and anybody who is anyone is at least 18th level, and 26th level characters occur in not insignificant numbers. I'd feel comfortable at something like 8th level fighter/4th level sorcerer, but I could definately see making use of the Blackguard PrC if that was your sort of thing.
My preferences in a campaign are probably created by early exposure to GG's World of Greyhawk, were a 9th level character really was special and not every other bartender and characters above 15th level were virtually unheard of and certainly world renowned legendary figurers. If your preferences were formed by exposure to the Forgotten Realms then you probably feel 9th level characters are common place and anybody who is anyone is at least 18th level, and 26th level characters occur in not insignificant numbers. I'd feel comfortable at something like 8th level fighter/4th level sorcerer, but I could definately see making use of the Blackguard PrC if that was your sort of thing.
Celebrim
Legend
As far as I know, we have absolutely no idea how old the Mouth of Sauron is or even certain knowledge of where he comes from. The best guess is that he is originated in one of the lands conquered and colonized by the Numenoreans, the most famous of which is Umbar. But we can't be certain. He could come from some unmentioned place in the interior, or from somewhere further down the coast.
But it is HIGHLY unlikely that he is 3000 years old, and indeed I would say impossible. The ability to prolong life in that fashion would require a great ring, and it is possible that even Sauron could not fashion another great ring without the assistance of the elves. Certainly thier is no indication that the MoS is associated with a ring, or that Sauron continued to fashion rings, and there is certainly no indication that MoS has faded as a mortal should whose life has been so unnaturally prolonged.
It is actually rather unlikely that he is as much as 300 years old, though that is certainly closer to the ball park. We know that the Numenoreans forfeit to a greater or lesser degree thier right to prolonged life when they act in an univirtuous manner. We know that the Black Numenoreans, that is the racist Numenorean conquerers of the southern reaches who abandoned the worship of Illuvator and became worshipers of Morgoth, have been VERY unvirtuous for generations. So it is highly likely that the Black Numenoreans are greatly decayed and don't live nearly as long as Numenoreans in periods in which 'the blood ran true'. Certainly there is every reason to assume that the MoS is younger than Aragorn was at his death, probably by a century or more.
As a general philosophical theme, I think JRRT would have rejected allowing evil to create life or prolong life. Unless you want MoS to be a wraith, or undead, and I believe the text specifically rejects that he is either, you have to accept a fairly young age for the MoS.
Now, if you are looking for Epic levels of power - you can turn to Sauron, Tom B., the Istari, the Balrog, the Witch King, Glorfindel, and Galadriel. Galadriel is after all in the neighborhood of 30,000 years old, and the daughter of Finwe (so she is probably one of the first elves born of elven flesh on the planet). Of the non-'outsider' characters in LotR she is certainly by far the most powerful, and could probably have at least contended with the Balrog or one of the Istari herself. After all, it took more than one Balrog to kill her brother Feanor, and Feanor once cowed Morgoth, and another one Fingolfin once wounded Morgoth so severely that the pain never left him. Morgoth was Sauron's boss. She is one of the few characters in the story who probably _could_ have taken the ring and defeated Sauron with it. I don't personally feel Aragorn could have, and it is highly likely that if Aragorn claimed the ring and Sauron came up and said 'Give me what is mine.', that Aragorn would be compelled to do so.
The highest level fighter in the story is actually a minor character - Glorfindel. We know that Glorfindel is the very same Glorfindel that killed a Balrog during the fall of Gondolin, so at least in physical might he is the equal of Gandalf.
But it is HIGHLY unlikely that he is 3000 years old, and indeed I would say impossible. The ability to prolong life in that fashion would require a great ring, and it is possible that even Sauron could not fashion another great ring without the assistance of the elves. Certainly thier is no indication that the MoS is associated with a ring, or that Sauron continued to fashion rings, and there is certainly no indication that MoS has faded as a mortal should whose life has been so unnaturally prolonged.
It is actually rather unlikely that he is as much as 300 years old, though that is certainly closer to the ball park. We know that the Numenoreans forfeit to a greater or lesser degree thier right to prolonged life when they act in an univirtuous manner. We know that the Black Numenoreans, that is the racist Numenorean conquerers of the southern reaches who abandoned the worship of Illuvator and became worshipers of Morgoth, have been VERY unvirtuous for generations. So it is highly likely that the Black Numenoreans are greatly decayed and don't live nearly as long as Numenoreans in periods in which 'the blood ran true'. Certainly there is every reason to assume that the MoS is younger than Aragorn was at his death, probably by a century or more.
As a general philosophical theme, I think JRRT would have rejected allowing evil to create life or prolong life. Unless you want MoS to be a wraith, or undead, and I believe the text specifically rejects that he is either, you have to accept a fairly young age for the MoS.
Now, if you are looking for Epic levels of power - you can turn to Sauron, Tom B., the Istari, the Balrog, the Witch King, Glorfindel, and Galadriel. Galadriel is after all in the neighborhood of 30,000 years old, and the daughter of Finwe (so she is probably one of the first elves born of elven flesh on the planet). Of the non-'outsider' characters in LotR she is certainly by far the most powerful, and could probably have at least contended with the Balrog or one of the Istari herself. After all, it took more than one Balrog to kill her brother Feanor, and Feanor once cowed Morgoth, and another one Fingolfin once wounded Morgoth so severely that the pain never left him. Morgoth was Sauron's boss. She is one of the few characters in the story who probably _could_ have taken the ring and defeated Sauron with it. I don't personally feel Aragorn could have, and it is highly likely that if Aragorn claimed the ring and Sauron came up and said 'Give me what is mine.', that Aragorn would be compelled to do so.
The highest level fighter in the story is actually a minor character - Glorfindel. We know that Glorfindel is the very same Glorfindel that killed a Balrog during the fall of Gondolin, so at least in physical might he is the equal of Gandalf.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Amen.
I thought that Galadriel was more in the neighborhood of 10,000 years old, though?
Note that it's not completely clear that the Glorfindel appearing in FotR and the Glorfindel in The Silmarillion are one and the same, though it is likely.
And yes, it's likely that Galadriel could have defeated Sauron; her mentor, Melian, was probably Sauron's equal (possibly his better), and JRRT notes several times that the ward around Lothlorien would only have been breached had Sauron himself come in his full power (something that actually would have been impossible throughout most or all of the Third Age). Of course, there's also the weird specialization of talents thing prevalent in Tolkien; Galadriel's power is oriented strongly toward defense and divination, not offense, and as such she might have difficulty contesting with Sauron.
I thought that Galadriel was more in the neighborhood of 10,000 years old, though?
Note that it's not completely clear that the Glorfindel appearing in FotR and the Glorfindel in The Silmarillion are one and the same, though it is likely.
And yes, it's likely that Galadriel could have defeated Sauron; her mentor, Melian, was probably Sauron's equal (possibly his better), and JRRT notes several times that the ward around Lothlorien would only have been breached had Sauron himself come in his full power (something that actually would have been impossible throughout most or all of the Third Age). Of course, there's also the weird specialization of talents thing prevalent in Tolkien; Galadriel's power is oriented strongly toward defense and divination, not offense, and as such she might have difficulty contesting with Sauron.
Celebrim
Legend
The length of the peace of Valinor is not certain. There is this really huge gap in the 1st age time line where you can drop in a arbitrary number of millenia. I'd have to go looking to see what the good professor finalized on, but I do remember that the 'Years of the Trees' were 10 times the length of the 'Years of the Sun', and that the Annals of the Valar counted 3000 years.
It isn't completely clear from the text whether the two Glorfindel's are the same, but in a letter answering this very question Tolkein admitted that they were the same - though it hadn't been his initial intention to make them so. Tolkein said that Glorfindel had begged leave of the Valar to return to ME so that he could continue the struggle against the forces of evil. He was so persuasive and persistant that they finally relented.
Yeah, Galadriel is cool. Too bad PJ muddled her character so badly.
It isn't completely clear from the text whether the two Glorfindel's are the same, but in a letter answering this very question Tolkein admitted that they were the same - though it hadn't been his initial intention to make them so. Tolkein said that Glorfindel had begged leave of the Valar to return to ME so that he could continue the struggle against the forces of evil. He was so persuasive and persistant that they finally relented.
Yeah, Galadriel is cool. Too bad PJ muddled her character so badly.
