D&D 5E Move Attack Move: Issues with The New Standard for Combat

[frogimus]

Exerting control over a 5x5 square, especially when there are walls on two sides to cause chokepoints, is pretty easy.

The average male is around 5'8". The length from finger-tip to finger-tip is almost the same as your height. So the average knight standing in the center of a 5' box will be able to reach 4 inches beyond the edge of that box. A longsword has a blade of 3 to 3.5 feet, and a handle of at least 6". If we say that the last six inches of the arm and the first 6 inches of the sword overlap, then Bob the fighter has an effective reach of 5' in BOTH directions. He can easily exert control over the 2.5 feet on either side of him and it will certainly be difficult for anyone to get past him.

And, if you are using miniatures on 25mm bases, it is pretty easy to see how well a human sized creature can fill a 6x6 space.

 

[DMZ2112]

Exerting control over a 5x5 square, especially when there are walls on two sides to cause chokepoints, is pretty easy.

The average male is around 5'8". The length from finger-tip to finger-tip is almost the same as your height. So the average knight standing in the center of a 5' box will be able to reach 4 inches beyond the edge of that box. A longsword has a blade of 3 to 3.5 feet, and a handle of at least 6". If we say that the last six inches of the arm and the first 6 inches of the sword overlap, then Bob the fighter has an effective reach of 5' in BOTH directions. He can easily exert control over the 2.5 feet on either side of him and it will certainly be difficult for anyone to get past him.

Funny, I'd just quote all those same numbers back at you and say how unlikely it seems.

 

[tomBitonti]

Whether a fighter controls the square in not the real problem. The problem is getting the seven Duegar in and out of the adjacent square in six seconds.

The question of fighter control has more to do with how many AOOs the fighter should get.

Thx!

TomB

 

[Sunseeker]

Funny, I'd just quote all those same numbers back at you and say how unlikely it seems.

Then arguably you're looking for a game with less emphasis on the numbers and more emphasis on the storytelling. I'd post that D&D is a poor game for that. But really if your argument is to take my statements and say "NO IT DOESN'T!", well then that's a pretty poor argument.

 

[DMZ2112]

Then arguably you're looking for a game with less emphasis on the numbers and more emphasis on the storytelling. I'd post that D&D is a poor game for that. But really if your argument is to take my statements and say "NO IT DOESN'T!", well then that's a pretty poor argument.

It's really not any poorer than yours; it's not like you've cited any statistical evidence. You've just given some metrics and stated a dubious conclusion. I agree with your metrics, but I come to a different dubious conclusion.

You are probably right that I am reading too deeply into the D&D combat simulation.

 

[tomBitonti]

What to do is find a hallway that leads to a room, and put yourself through the motions of running 15' around a corner and down the hall, then back, making an attack while you pause for a moment, while wielding a long sharp blade, then picture seven of you doing that all in a 6' round.

Or, since the corner introduces a new, different problem (corners should slow down movement a lot, and that could inform the imagining in a way that detracts from the original point), make a V shaped hallway, with seven fighters shoulder to shoulder along a 20' wide section, in a coordinated fashion moving forward into a single 5' square and attacking someone there.

It actually sounds like there should be a combat trick to a similar effect, where you could use spring attack and attack from a square occupied by an ally.

Thx!

TomB

 

[Plaguescarred]

(corners should slow down movement a lot

I agree it should and D&D Next doesn't have diagonal movement rules for "hard corner" yet, disallowing you to move diagonally straight to a corner instead of around it like previous editions had.

4E PHB 283 Diagonal Movement: Moving diagonally works the same as other movement, except you can’t cross the corner of a wall or another obstacle that fills the corner between the square you’re in and the square you want to move to. You can move diagonally past most creatures, since they don’t completely fill their squares.

 

[Dausuul]

Regardless of the realism of one guy being able to hold a 5-foot square, the question is whether seven guys can pack into a 5-foot square and still fight.

The only way it could possibly work would be if you set them up as a miniature phalanx, with 2-3 guys in front holding shields and small weapons (hand axes, short swords, short spears), and 4-5 guys with long spears backing them up. The guys in front slash and stab while holding up their shields, and the guys behind them jab low at anyone who comes within reach. In a tight space, where you don't have to worry about your mini-phalanx getting flanked, this would be a very effective tactic. I could see this being a standard dwarven strategy.

So, we all okay then? Well... no. A phalanx should be slow-moving, very strong on defense, and deadly to anyone who gets close. It should be vulnerable to area attacks, even ones with a very small AoE. All this is the exact opposite of a conga line, which is highly mobile, defensively weak, not especially AoE-vulnerable, and best dealt with by charging in to engage at close range.

Move-attack-move models skirmish tactics very well and phalanx tactics very badly. Let's not try to make it into something it's not.