Move Silently Question

[drnuncheon]

Been trying to post this for days...rassle frassin' header problems...

If you peform a double move at a rate of 15 feet per move, you're still only walking, which means you're still only moving half your normal movement rate.

Here's the flaw:

Walking is not moving at half your movement rate. It is moving at your normal movement rate, because movement is measured per round - if you have Speed 30, then your normal move per round is 30' and half your movement rate is 15'.

Taking a double move and going more than 30' in a round is not your normal movement rate - it is moving faster than normal. (Note that you can't keep it up for very long according to the overland travel rules.)

Thus, one full round of Move Silently (at no penalty) = 15' of motion.

What you are proposing - doing a double move of 15' and then 15' - is moving at your normal rate (30' per round), not moving at half speed (15' per round). The confusion sets in because speed is measured in feet per round, and yet it happens to be the same distance that you can hustle in a single move.

Consider this: if you move 30' and attack someone, you are hustling (jogging) over to them - we know this from the PHB quotes I posted above. When you hustle, you are moving double your move rate (60') - we also know this from the PHB. The reason you only get half as far (30') is because you're stopping to do something else - it's a coincidence that this happens to be the same as your normal speed, which is where all the confusion sets in.

If you were to walk over and hit someone, you would only be able to move 15' - you can walk 30' per round, but you only get half as far because you stop to do something else.

If you were moving silently, you would halve your speed - so you could move 15' in a full round, or 7.5' combined with some other action.

I hope that's a bit clearer, and shows where the 30'/round vs. 30'/move confusion sets in.

J

 

[Li Shenron]

I hope that's a bit clearer, and shows where the 30'/round vs. 30'/move confusion sets in.

Actually, in the SRD it says that with base Speed 30 you either "walk" 30ft/round or "hustle" 60ft/round, which represents a double move. Apart that it doesn't say that "walk" represents a single move, I am still convinced that nobody really "walks" in combat, although there is a walking speed listed for tactical movement during combat. In fact it says that on a standard action you're hustling "half of the time". At this point, why to think 30/move should be wrong doesn't make sense to me.

Then the SRD says NOTHING about using Move Silently either as a move action, a full-round action or whatever, while the SRD is instead very clear when describing Climb and Balance. For Move Silently it simply says "the character moves up to one-half his normal speed", without really saying if it walks half speed in 1 full round or if it hustles half speed in 1 move action.

Please notice, that I find it very reasonable that if one is moving silently he moves slower than when he WALKS, but I still think that the SRD explanation isn't clear enough during combat.

Effectively, I have never seen a PC moving silently in combat, which is probably the reason why it doesn't say much clear about it.

The confusion is IMO because if you say in normal language "half speed" it means half speed, whatever your speed. In D&D Speed is really a distance, and half Speed means half distance. Still the SRD doesn't say "move half Speed every round", just "move half speed". I re-state that IMO it doesn't make much difference unless you are moving silently in combat, which I have never seen (surprise someone from the back? when combat is but a whole simultaneous action by all characters involved? and without facing rules?)

I hope that a next version of SRD will have that "every round" missing, once and forever!

 

[Felix]

drnuncheon: where does it give units for movement? It never does. It says 30 ft, but it does not say 30 ft per round (nor does it say 30 ft per move action to be fair).

To point at this:

------ Base Speed -------
30 ft.

One Round (Tactical)
Walk 30 ft.
Hustle 60 ft.

and say that this means explicitly (30 feet)/(round) is absurd as the citation is unclear.

When it says base speed 30 ft, it gives no time incriments.
When it says One Round (Tactical) Walk 30 ft. it just might mean that the character is taking two movement actions while moving at half speed.
When it says One Round (Tactical) Hustle 60 ft. it just might mean that the character can move 30 feet with one movement action and that this is a characters normal speed. Who is to say that that is not what Base Speed 30 ft means?

I can understand how both arguments make sense, and you delivered yours with clarity BTW, but what is the hole in this argument?

What makes it a flaw to state that Hustle = Normal (Tactical) Movement?

 

[IceBear]

I'm going to go with kreynold's interpretation as it's just easier. That said, is moving silently a full round action? Using the interpretation that the rogue can only move 15ft while moving silently, and the arguments why, almost make it sound like you can do nothing else while moving silently.

The reason I like kreynold's way is that it allows you to take one action to move silently and you still have an action left to do something. As long as it's consistent, I don't see anything unbalancing.

IceBear

 

[Li Shenron]

Balance (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)

Check: The character can walk on a precarious surface as a move-equivalent action. A successful check lets the character move at half the character's speed along the surface for 1 round.

(...)

Accelerated Movement: The character can try to walk a precarious surface more quickly than normal. If the character accepts a –5 penalty, the character can move at normal speed as a move-equivalent action. (Moving twice the character's speed in a round requires two checks.)

It seems that you either:
1. move 15ft in 1 round (why as a MEA? I think maybe you can't double-move but you can get a standard action in the same round)
2. move 30ft as a MEA + standard action, but -5
3. move 30ft as a MEA + move 30ft as a MEA, but -5 (2checks)

Climb (STR; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)

Check: With each successful Climb check, the character can advance up, down, or across a slope or a wall or other steep incline (or even a ceiling with handholds) one-half the character's speed as a miscellaneous full-round action. The character can move half that far, one-fourth of the character's speed, as a miscellaneous move-equivalent action.

(...)

Accelerated Climbing: The character tries to climb more quickly than normal. As a miscellaneous full-round action, the character can attempt to cover the character's full speed in climbing distance, but the character suffers a –5 penalty on Climb checks and the character must make two checks each round. Each successful check allows the character to climb a distance equal to one-half the character's speed. By accepting the –5 penalty, the character can move this far as a move-equivalent action rather than as a full-round action.

You can:
1. move 15ft as a FRA (1check)
2. move 7.5ft as a MEA (1check)
3. move 30ft as a FRA (2checks), but -5
4. move 15ft as a MEA (1check), but -5

It is quite clear that it would have been much better if Move Silently had the same kind of explanation

 

[drnuncheon]

drnuncheon: where does it give units for movement? It never does. It says 30 ft, but it does not say 30 ft per round (nor does it say 30 ft per move action to be fair).

You're right, it doesn't. But 30' per move action is a jog - we've established that - and moving at a jog is hardly 'normal'. (Try jogging everywhere for a day, you'll get strange looks, I guarantee it.)

Everyone saying you should be able to MS for 30' in one round is assuming that a 'hustle' is 'normal speed', which I can see no basis for.

I'd also like to point, under the Listen check skill descriptions, that the armored people attempting to use Move Silently untrained are listed as going 10'/round (medium armor) and 15'/round (no armor) - half the speed per round that they'd get to move at a walk.

When it says base speed 30 ft, it gives no time incriments.
When it says One Round (Tactical) Walk 30 ft. it just might mean that the character is taking two movement actions while moving at half speed.
When it says One Round (Tactical) Hustle 60 ft. it just might mean that the character can move 30 feet with one movement action and that this is a characters normal speed. Who is to say that that is not what Base Speed 30 ft means?

I can understand how both arguments make sense, and you delivered yours with clarity BTW, but what is the hole in this argument?

What makes it a flaw to state that Hustle = Normal (Tactical) Movement?

The flaw to my mind is that jogging/hustling is a) not 'normal' movement, and b) not conducive to Moving Silently.

a) is borne out by the fact that you cannot keep up a hustle for more than one hour of overland travel without starting to make Con rolls. b) is common sense.

Another flaw I see is apparently assuming that Move Silently will always be used in combat. I think that in general, it will be used more out of combat, where "normal" speed is a walk, not a jog - and thus meaning you move 15' a round while moving silently.

Why do you think that a jog makes more sense than a walk as the definition of "normal" speed for a primarily out-of-combat skill?

Why do you think moving silently should be just as fast as walking normally, without any penalty to the skill roll?

If you can move at a walking pace just as easily as at half a walking pace, why are the people in the Listen example walking more slowly, when there is no benefit to doing so?

J

 

[The Souljourner]

The overland movement chart gives a pretty good indication what normal movement is supposed to look like.

One round is 30'.

One minute is 300' (10 rounds of 30' per round).

One hour is 3 miles (60 minutes of 300' per minute...rounded to make things easier)

One day is 24 miles (8 hours of 3 miles an hour)

Now, I'm assuming this is a constant walk, not walk for three seconds, stop for three seconds, so obviously it's taking up the entire time.

KReynolds, you had mentioned that the daily overland movement for a 30' race was 32 - that's actually for 40' movement, which makes sense given the math - 8 hours at 4 miles per hour.

So, anyway, I guess the real question is - does half speed mean half moves, or does it mean half walking velocity.

The Balance and Climb checks are pretty explicit that half speed means half walking velocity. Move Silently has no such paragraph, leaving it ambiguous. It seems to make sense to me that the same mechanic would apply to move silently, but you could just as easily argue that the lack of such a paragraph proves it works differently.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense for a person who is walking slowly and carefully in order to be quiet to be able to keep up with someone who is walking purposely without trying to be silent. *shrug*

-The Souljourner

 

[IceBear]

But using Kreynold's way he still wouldn't keep up.

Target moves 60ft (two 30ft moves) while the sneaker moves 30ft (two 15ft moves).

I do agree that a speed of 30ft means you walk 30ft per round, but in combat (when we're talking actions) moving silently 15ft would become a full round action then and would never be used (not like it is now either ).

I do agree that you're way is probably the correct one via the rules, but I don't like it so I'll houserule it to use kreynold's way - I don't think it's unbalancing.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

KReynolds, you had mentioned that the daily overland movement for a 30' race was 32 - that's actually for 40' movement...

Heh. Now that's funny. That damn reply has been sitting in a text file waiting to be posted since last Thursday and I never noticed that.

 

[Li Shenron]

The overland movement chart gives a pretty good indication what normal movement is supposed to look like.

One round is 30'.

One minute is 300' (10 rounds of 30' per round).

One hour is 3 miles (60 minutes of 300' per minute...rounded to make things easier)

One day is 24 miles (8 hours of 3 miles an hour)

Now, I'm assuming this is a constant walk, not walk for three seconds, stop for three seconds, so obviously it's taking up the entire time.

I still believe you either hustle-in-combat or walk-outside-combat. Even if the SRD table lists also speed for walking in combat (although nobody strolls around during a fight...) and hustle speed overland (which you can do for a while, and basically no character would do unless in special hurry circumstance).

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