MP Strongholds & Dynasties vs. Atlas' Dynasties & Demagues?

[Kichwas]

Which is better?


Both seem to deal with the same topic, even if the Mongoose book claims it's the only book on the market dealing with political games in d20...

Strongholds & Dynasties:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/detail.php?qsID=168&qsSeries=Classic Play

Dynasties & Demagues:
http://www.atlas-games.com/product_tables/AG3220.html

Thoughts? Anyone even have both?

 

[trancejeremy]

Bear in mind, the Atlas book is more on role-playing politics, and the only really crunchy stuff has to do with elections (and the usual classes, feats and such).

If you want to do West Wing d20, then that's your book.

Can't speak for the Mongoose book, as I haven't seen it.

 

[trancejeremy]

But I will add that the Mongoose seems to be more in line with AEG's Empire, or the Eden's Fields of Blood. Focusing on the crunchy bits of running a kindgom/empire, sorta like a wargame or Civilization (the PC game). Which is the complete opposite of the Atlas book.

 

[Kichwas]

The back of the Atlas book mentioned 44 new feats, 9 prestige classes, new spells and magic items, and so on. It sounded more 'rules crunch' focused than the Mongoose book.

 

[trancejeremy]

Well, like I said, the Atlas book does have crunch (about 50 pages of the book, total), but it focuses on political characters.

For instance, most of the new spells are for spying on people.

The new feats are kind of like Fading Sun's Social feats, they're "Personality Feats". (It does in fact nick a lot of Fading Suns social feats, but it changes them to regular feats).

So basically, it focuses on the more intangible aspects of politics. Whereas I get the impression that the Mongoose book has specific rules on building up strongholds, finding resources, fighting wars, etc.

 

[johnsemlak]

As stated above, the Atlas book does not have rules for running dominions, mass combat, or building strongholds.

Dynasties and Demagogues is really a player's guide to roleplaying in political campaigns, IMO. And a very good one at that.

Dynasties and Demagogues will work very well with Mongoose's Strongholds and Dynasties.

 

[Kichwas]

Mongoose's book has 152 pages on how to design a politcal scene and run it or play within it.

Atlas' book is all about that same subject, and I don't recall it's page count.

It seems to me that one would have to either toss out half the content of the Mongoose book, or all of the content of the Atlas book.

 

[Teflon Billy]

The back of the Atlas book mentioned 44 new feats, 9 prestige classes, new spells and magic items, and so on. It sounded more 'rules crunch' focused than the Mongoose book.

It is.

Dynasties and Demagogues codifes mechanics for social action, in much the same way that the core rules codify mechanics for physical action.

So you get "Debate" points (or something...the book is upstairs, and I'm not going to go get it), that are whittled away by enemy arguments in much the same fashion as Hit Points are taken by enemy weaponry.

I think it's a really fantastic and well-executed idea for people who want to have socially/politcially savvy characters, but lack an of those traits themselves (in much the same way as people with no actual RL ability to fight enjoy "power Attack" )

We don't actually use the rules too much, as 2/3rd's of my gaming group have extensive RL politcal experience and prefer to RP most of it out (augmented by CHA, Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate rolls), and they hold the rules as being incredibly oversimplified.

...in much the same fashion as actual Swordsmen likley hold the D&D Combat rules

I haven't read the Mongoose one, but the cover looked nice.

 

[Kichwas]

Debate points?

Does it seem funky, or workable?

What about the non-mechanical non-rules crunchy side of the book? Does it do a lot to detail how you can set up and run a political focused game? Or play well in one.

I've got a decent understanding of political issues myself, as a Poly Sci major going into criminal law (on the defense end - the good guys)... but my players are the typical sort of people who seem to vote by rolling a die at the polls - we've even got one who voted for Gov. Conan...

What I'd be looking for in either of these books is info on setting up the political scene of a fantasy game, from the rulers to the dissidents to all the relevant struggles powers and issues in between.

So far though it seems as if nobody has the Mongoose book yet.

 

[CCamfield]

Dynasties & Demagogues does discuss a bunch of different political systems, and creating political adventures, but it doesn't really provide guidelines for doing complete world-building from a political point of view.

I wrote a review of it which is here and at rpg.net.

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=active&reviewer=ccamfield&product=DaD

I haven't actually used the rules (not DMing anything) but the debate "combat system" seems very workable. There's an equivalent to AC too, and a bunch of different maneuvers, the choice of which has an effect, like following up your opponent's Big Lie with a Humorous Jab will get you a bonus, but offering a compromise will net you a penalty. And there are different types of maneuvers available based on the skill used... so even barbarians (using Intimidate) can participate, not to mention there are basic maneuvers anyone can use.