D&D 5E Multi-class power-up examples?

[brehobit]

Hi folks,
As I'm sure you've seen, there is a pretty long thread about allowing or not allowing multi-class characters. What appears to be a built-in assumption is that multi-class characters allows one to get more "optimized" or more powerful characters. I consider myself a pretty good optimizer, but I'm having a hard time finding more than a case or two where multi-classing is better from a min/max viewpoint. The way stat/feat bonuses are based on level in a given class rather than total level means that you either need to get to level 4 in a class or take a non-trivial hit at certain (or even most) levels. I've found it difficult to even get back to a character as good as a single-classed character.

So, what specific class/level combinations do people see as being "power-ups" over a straight single class character? The best I've found is a Barbarian 1/Warlock (bladelock) X. The extra 4 hit points, medium armor proficiency, martial weapon proficiency and especially rage are all nice. But being 1 level behind in spell slots half the time and 1 stat gain behind 1/4 of the time sucks. Plus level 5 sucks because you are still only getting one melee attack. Still, I'd say overall the character is comparable to a pure warlock in terms of useful power--better in melee but often worse at range.

Anyone have any others? I guess what I'm looking to see is exactly what everyone is worried about. I feel like I'm missing something.

 

[Cernor]

One that I've heard of is War/Tempest Cleric 1/Wizard 1-19, because you get free proficiency with heavy armor and martial weapons while retaining the casting capabilities of a full caster (and the Spell Mastery feature).

 

[txshusker]

I'm with you. I don't see it. To MC you have to sacrifice something in both classes. More diverse doesn't translate to more powerful. It simply gives the player more things to choose from. I would say that if you MC early, you don't get behind on a lot of XP, though. 4 levels of one is only 2700XP. So above 9th lvl, it's possible the MCs top leveled class is only 1lvl or at the lower threshold of the same level as the rest of the party... and would also have 4 lvls of another class. Which could be comparatively more powerful vs other players characters, but I don't see it as overpowering the character vs monsters. You can only use 1 action a rnd, after all. (well... you know what I mean.)

 

[txshusker]

One that I've heard of is War/Tempest Cleric 1/Wizard 1-19, because you get free proficiency with heavy armor and martial weapons while retaining the casting capabilities of a full caster (and the Spell Mastery feature).

That's still not enough for me to go "whoa!" When is a spell caster going to use martial weapons? Armor proficiency might make a difference at lower levels, I could see that... but the discrepancy between what he'd have normally or the armor usually disappears at higher levels when magicked protections start adding on. A plate armored mage is a funny image, though.

 

[MrMyth]

Over the course of a career, there will be levels where multiclassing comes out ahead, and levels where it comes out behind. At level 10, a Champion Fighter gets an extra fighting style feature, for example. If there aren't any good ones on the list, maybe my Champion Fighter 9 decides to instead snag a level of Barbarian. Right then and there, the Fighter 9 / Barbarian 1 is going to be better than the Fighter 10.

However, at the next level, the Fighter 11 has 3 attacks. Even getting cool stuff from a second level of Barbarian is going to be hard matching that. And Fighter 12 is another stat bump/boost, which is also big. On the other hand, Fighter 13 is simply a second use of Indomitable, which isn't that big a deal - so suddenly the Fighter 12 / Barbarian 1 is again in the lead. Etc, etc, etc.

Outside of a one-shot where you can choose the optimum combo of levels for that specific adventure, I don't think there is any real 'abuse' to be found.

Now, that doesn't mean there isn't any reason to multiclass, of course. You end up with different features and builds than going a straight class. Often the goal is to give you versatility - certainly, most combinations of a martial combatant + a caster tend to go in that direction, and same for mixing two casting classes together.

Outside of that, you generally see some multiclassing targeted at acquiring specific class features. The common targets I see:
- Two levels of rogue to get Cunning Action - and thus a free move every round - can be very useful for a melee combatant who wants to always be able to reach the action.
- Two levels of warlock to snag some useful invocations can work for many builds. If I'm a rogue, Devil's Sight (for Darkvision), Armor of Shadows (for Mage Armor) and the Great Old One Pact (for Telepathy) is a nice batch of features. And some bonus damage via Hex, plus other utility spells to boot. Meanwhile, Fiend Pact and False Life at will can be very useful for a tank.
- Three levels of Bard can get you Expertise, Jack of All Trades, and four skill proficiencies.
- Cleric 1 can get you skill stuff (Knowledge Domain), or Heavy Armor (various Domains).
- Fighter 2 can get you Action Surge. Fighter 3 can get you Superiority Dice.

But that kinda is the problem with these lists. Ok, I've got Fighter 2 for Action Surge. I might as well go another level for Superiority Dice. Why not keep going for a feat? And Extra Attack? And then another feat?

There is usually something else right around the corner in most every class. Those will all provide competing, and often compelling, choices that pull you in different directions.

For everything you get, of course, you generally are giving something up. If you are a caster, multiclassing means giving up higher tiers of spells. Using lower-level spells in higher slots can help mitigate that loss, but it is still there. If you are a martial combatant, multiclassing might delay when you get extra attacks, or other key class features. It can throw off your feat/ability score progression if you don't multiclass in multiples of 4. Etc.

Again, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. It is a trade-off. Whether the trade is worth it will depend on the character, and what it is you are looking for.

 

[Pauper]

Be aware that there is the occasional hidden nugget that requires multiclassing for maximal effect. For example, the spell 'elemental weapon' only appears on the paladin spell list, yet it references an effect when cast using a 7th level or higher spell slot, which a straight-class paladin doesn't get. To get the maximum effect from the spell, you must be a multiclass paladin; it's up to you to decide if multiclassing is worth the extra +1 to attack and +1d4 damage you get over casting the spell in the highest level slot available to a straight-class paladin.

 

[Dausuul]

Hi folks,
As I'm sure you've seen, there is a pretty long thread about allowing or not allowing multi-class characters. What appears to be a built-in assumption is that multi-class characters allows one to get more "optimized" or more powerful characters. I consider myself a pretty good optimizer, but I'm having a hard time finding more than a case or two where multi-classing is better from a min/max viewpoint. The way stat/feat bonuses are based on level in a given class rather than total level means that you either need to get to level 4 in a class or take a non-trivial hit at certain (or even most) levels. I've found it difficult to even get back to a character as good as a single-classed character.

This is very true. The main flaw of 5E multiclassing is not that it's easily exploitable, but that it takes a lot of careful planning to make a character who isn't wretchedly sub-par. This undercuts the theory of multiclassing as a story element: If you change classes "on the fly" as your PC grows and changes, you'll almost certainly end up with a heap of low-level abilities that don't combine in any useful way, and your character will be pathetic compared to your single-classed companions.

Much has been made of the ability to get armor proficiencies by dipping fighter or cleric. I remain unimpressed. Having played a multi-classed cleric/wizard, I eventually cajoled my DM into letting me go straight wizard. The armor proficiency is not worth delaying access to high-level wizard spells and abilities. (Yeah, yeah, 20th-level build, whatever. What happens at 20th is almost entirely theorycrafting; very few campaigns ever get anywhere close to that high. My wizard is 13th level right now, and I consider that quite high. I don't expect to reach 20, ever.)

Of the few exploits that do exist, most revolve around the warlock, because the warlock's peculiar mechanics let you pull some shenanigans with conventional spellcasting classes. A lot of these disappeared after it was ruled that warlock invocations key off warlock level instead of character level. Still, there are a few remaining. Here are the two I'm aware of offhand:

• A wizard 5/warlock 5 can cast animate dead twice per hour, amassing a much larger force of undead than would normally be possible at 10th level. However, this trick takes 10 levels to start working, so it's not ideal.
• A warlock 2/sorcerer X can stack Quicken Spell with Agonizing Blast for powerhouse single-target damage output. As an example, if you're a warlock 2/sorcerer 3 with Charisma 16, you can dish out 4d10+12 damage per round, for a total of 5 rounds per day plus 1 additional round per short rest. Of course, this assumes you're willing to burn up all your spell slots generating sorcery points. However, as you gain sorcerer levels, you'll have a lot more sorcery points available, and your eldritch blast damage will continue to grow. At warlock 2/sorcerer 5, you've got 10 rounds per day plus 1 per short rest, and you're dealing 4d10+16. At warlock 2/sorcerer 9 (when the fighter is just hitting her third attack), you've got 22 rounds per day of dealing 6d10+30! Crazy stuff. This is about the best exploit I've seen so far. Plus, of course, you've got 5th-level sorcerer spells in case you need to do something other than smack someone upside the head for ~58 damage.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Be aware that there is the occasional hidden nugget that requires multiclassing for maximal effect. For example, the spell 'elemental weapon' only appears on the paladin spell list, yet it references an effect when cast using a 7th level or higher spell slot, which a straight-class paladin doesn't get. To get the maximum effect from the spell, you must be a multiclass paladin; it's up to you to decide if multiclassing is worth the extra +1 to attack and +1d4 damage you get over casting the spell in the highest level slot available to a straight-class paladin.

yea I think getting higher level spell slots is better, and as such it does help lesser casters, but from a min/max perspective it is always better to take the straight caster.

I know I am trying to powergame a 2 diffrent idea's


a)Fighter (Eldritch knight)/ Rogue (Arcane Trickster)/Bard to maximize spell casting but also keeping combat effective, and it's hard.

Even if we pretend the character is guaranteed to reach 20th level, the best I could hope for is:

1) f12/r6/B2... witch is still only caster level 8
2) F6/r6/b8... witch looses an attack, the ability to cast cantrip and attack, but is caster level 12

b) A mystic theurge like 3e

1)cleric 8/wizard 12 6th level wiz spells and 4tj level cleric spells and 9th slots
2)cleric 1/Paliden 2/Wizard 17 still gets 9th level spell slots but has 1st level of 2 diff divine class spells


the fact that warlocks don't get to increase spell slots when multi confuses me as well

 

[the Jester]

Of the few exploits that do exist, most revolve around the warlock, because the warlock's peculiar mechanics let you pull some shenanigans with conventional spellcasting classes. A lot of these disappeared after it was ruled that warlock invocations key off warlock level instead of character level.

Where does this ruling come from?

 

[Dausuul]

Where does this ruling come from?

Jeremy Crawford's Twitter feed, I think. Crawford is the official Rules Guy. Of course, nothing stops you from ignoring him and doing it the way you think it should be.