Multiclass Idea

[The Shadow]

I had a thought about how this might be done. First, what we know:

1) Multiclassing will follow the same basic idea as 3e.

2) They will try to spread out a class' benefits over the first 3 levels, so as to avoid front-loading and single-level dipping.

I am further assuming that magic bonus and weapon bonus do not stack, you merely get the best value of all your classes.

Now, the classes we see in the playtest document are still pretty front-loaded. So perhaps the spreading of class benefits will occur only for people who multiclass.

This makes a degree of sense - picking up your first level of a class in-game is different from the curtain rising upon a first-level character. The starting character has plenty of time for training before the curtain rises, while the multiclasser has to learn as he goes.

So here's an idea of how to multiclass into fighter:

Level 1: Pick your fighting style. You get your expertise die, and your 1st level ability to use it with. You also gain sufficient proficiencies to handle everything in your fighting style's suggested equipment.

Level 2: You get either Deadly Strike or Parry, your choice. (You don't have these yet, as you were so focussed on picking up your basic fighting style.) You also pick up all other weapon proficiencies, or all other armor and shield proficiencies, your choice.

Level 3: You gain the other of Deadly Strike or Parry, as well as all remaining proficiencies. Plus your usual 3rd level fighting-style technique.

Cleric:

Level 1: You gain the Orisons, Religion, and Channel Divinity abilities. Pick a Domain, but the only thing you get from it is the proficiencies implied by its suggested equipment.

Level 2: You gain your auto-prepared spells *only*, though you get the full number of slots for your level. You gain the 1st level benefit of your Domain, including all remaining proficiencies.

Level 3: You get the full spell slots for your level and all Domain abilities.

Rogue:

Level 1: You get Thieves' Cant and a 1d6 Sneak Attack ability, as well as all weapon and armor proficiencies. Pick a Rogue scheme, though at the moment all you get is its background skills.

Level 2: You gain your level 1 scheme ability and Knack. Sneak attack jumps to 3d6.

Level 3: You gain your level 2 scheme ability and Skill Mastery.

Wizard:

Level 1: You gain your Cantrips and Arcane Knowledge.

Level 2: You get your Spellbook, but only three 1st-level spells. You get all your slots.

Level 3: You get all spells appropriate to your level.

Sorcerer:

This one's a little hard to eyeball, as we only have one origin to work with, and it seems to be an unusual one. First pass:

Level 1: You get your cantrips, and any necessary proficiencies. You also get 1 Willpower, and your Sorcerous Power, but no spells.

Level 2: You get 2 more Willpower and 1 known spell.

Level 3: You get the full amount of Willpower and spells for your level.

Warlock:

Level 1: You get any proficiencies you don't have already. Plus Eldritch Lore, your 1st level Pact Boon, a 2d6 Eldritch Blast, and one favor per short rest.

Level 2: You gain 1 invocation and Ritual Magic. Eldritch Blast goes up to 3d6.

Level 3: You gain the full number of invocations for your level, plus 2 favors per short rest. Also your level 3 Pact Boon, as usual.

How's it look?

 

[Li Shenron]

It's not a bad idea, although I can't say if your suggested spread is already ok or would need some tweaking.

But I was thinking, if the problem is class front-loading, what if they simply required an additional XP cost when you take the first level in a new class?

1) Multiclassing will follow the same basic idea as 3e.

...

I am further assuming that magic bonus and weapon bonus do not stack, you merely get the best value of all your classes.

Are you absolutely sure that 1) is already decided? I must have missed some info about that!

Anyway... I think the main obstacle for 3e-style multiclassing is in fact the stacking of magic and weapon attack bonuses that you mention. It's very similar to how saving throw bonuses stacked in 3e multiclassing (while BAB did not have this problem but rather the opposite, that because it was rounded down in each class, it ended up even more rounded down in multiclassing except for full-BAB classes).

Getting the best value of all your classes may work well enough thanks to flatter math: if a 6th-level Fighter still has only +4 weapon attack but a 3rd-level Fighter has +3, then a Fighter 3/Wizard 3 has +3, that means you have given up a net +1... it's pretty good because you give up something but definitely you aren't shooting yourself in the foot!

Of course the gap might increase at higher levels, so it's possible that at some point there will be problems (but there are always inevitable problems with multiclassing, one way or the other).

 

[slobo777]

I think a 3E system with the kinks ironed out would be just fine. But as you say, they might need to adjust the base classes, which IMO would make it over-complicated.

A 4e-style mulit-class feat system, accessed via Specialisations, might also work, but would of course be limited to the power level that those feat chains give you i.e. not quite as much, or quite as equal between classes as a real multi-class might get you, but perhaps just right for a "dip".

Also, pre-built multiclasses, could be designed that met some of the need. Though I don't like this in general, it would at least allow the writers to pick out abilities that worked together, and create something playable without major problems. One of the older Basic (or was it "Expert"?) systems did this with the racial classes.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

SWSE did a good job of clearing up the front loading of classes by only giving you some things when you multiclassed - that's worth a look.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

One thing that keeps classes from being frontloaded is already in place in the documents: You don´t get skills, feats or any weapon and armor proficiencies. Those are only gained, if it is your first class.

In 3.0 fighter -> rogue was terrible compared to rogue -> fighter. In exchange for an average of 2 hp, you lost 3 levels of skillpoints!

 

[The Shadow]

It's not a bad idea, although I can't say if your suggested spread is already ok or would need some tweaking.

But I was thinking, if the problem is class front-loading, what if they simply required an additional XP cost when you take the first level in a new class?

Possible, I suppose - though a little hard on people who don't use XP.

Are you absolutely sure that 1) is already decided? I must have missed some info about that!

Yep. It was mentioned at the class design seminar at DDXP.

Anyway... I think the main obstacle for 3e-style multiclassing is in fact the stacking of magic and weapon attack bonuses that you mention. It's very similar to how saving throw bonuses stacked in 3e multiclassing (while BAB did not have this problem but rather the opposite, that because it was rounded down in each class, it ended up even more rounded down in multiclassing except for full-BAB classes).

Hmmm. I see your point. Well, one solution might be to take the higher 1st-level value, then add on the amount each class has progressed since 1st level. (As you said, like 3e saving throw bonuses.) It's a little more complicated, but not horribly so.

And yes, the flat math helps a lot. So does the boosted magic-attack numbers for primary spellcasters. They're equivalent to fighters in their bailiwick.

I think a 3E system with the kinks ironed out would be just fine. But as you say, they might need to adjust the base classes, which IMO would make it over-complicated.

I'm actually a little surprised that the playtest classes *don't* have abilities spread out over the first three levels, that's what I understood them to say they intended to do.

SWSE did a good job of clearing up the front loading of classes by only giving you some things when you multiclassed - that's worth a look.

I'm not very familiar with Star Wars SAGA, how did it work?

One thing that keeps classes from being frontloaded is already in place in the documents: You don´t get skills, feats or any weapon and armor proficiencies. Those are only gained, if it is your first class.

Good point. Proficiencies *are* specifically listed as 'if this is your first class'.

And of course feats and skills come strictly from specialties and backgrounds... with the exception of the Rogue, who gets an extra background. That in itself, plus Skill Mastery, makes single-level dipping into rogue very tempting.

I think there *has* to be some way to pick up proficiencies from a new class, though. But it doesn't have to be automatic. Maybe a rogue who becomes a fighter really doesn't gain any new weapons or armor by default - he just fights better. It's really harsh on a wizard who becomes a fighter, though!

EDIT: They also need to come up with a way to keep caster-level issues from popping up. And for Pete's sake, it makes perfect sense for wizard and sorcerer levels to synergize somehow! But I'm still working on exactly how.

EDIT: PS. I just got the pun in your name, and it's AWFUL! Well done!

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I'm not very familiar with Star Wars SAGA, how did it work?

Bear in mind that this was to fix 3E multiclassing, so it's not perfect, but if I recall you added the BAB and Saves from your new class to your old (and the way in which saves progressed was 'normalised' back to 0 - you got one-off bonuses from your first class and then either advanced 0,1,1,2,2 or 0,0,1,1,1,2,2), and then selected just one feat from the class' list of starting feats (which included their armor and weapon proficiencies). Skills worked a bit like 4E, being trained or not. Class features were fairly spread out if I recall, so 1 level in something was never that rewarding.

 

[r0gershrubber]

This is a difficult question, but I hope that the designers are thinking about this as they develop the classes. [edit: as opposed to as an after thought.]

One idea I remember bandied about earlier in the process was the idea that 1st level characters shouldn't necessarily be the standard starting point for starting a campaign; rather, the typical group would be encouraged to start at level 2 or 3. There are a lot of virtues to this idea, including

1. Typical starting characters (level 2 or 3) have a decent base of HP, drastically improving survivability. In this regard, the typical starting character looks more like a 4E character in terms of attack bonus, HP, etc.
2. The option of playing a gritty game where being first level is dangerous or achieving the "zero level" pre-adventurer play is available with 1st level characters.
3. This approach allows the designers to spread iconic class abilities over the first two or three levels so that the typical starting character has all of the expected abilities, and level dipping is discouraged.
4. Players can even start multi-classed, opening some new character concepts from the beginning and might otherwise be difficult to explain in the context of a campaign. (E.g. when the Wizard1 suddenly gains a level of Fighter, there is some head scratching. How did the character suddenly gain all of those armor, shield, and weapon proficiencies?)

It's not a perfect solution, and it seems from the playtest so far that this option has been ruled out, but I think it could work really well.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

My only hope is that whatever we get for mult-iclassing, it is explored before the single-class stuff gets too locked down. "Get part of your new class stuff," is ok for a kludged on multi-class option. It's not so hot for a game that is intended from the very beginning to support multi-classing. If you have a lot of fiddly options to make up for the fact that it doesn't really work straight--then you'll have a lot of fiddly options that will break when you look at them hard.

Specialties and backgrounds pulled out of classes will help. Flatter math will help. Spreading out the development of a strong character through the first few levels will help. Having a consistent idea of what the heck a multi-class character is supposed to be, will also help. But if we don't get it all put together and tried soon enough, it's mostly academic. All that stuff will then help us have a more acceptable kludge. I'd really like to have multi-classing that was designed, not retrofitted.

 

[Steely_Dan]

But there are a lot of us that don't use XP, we just level up when we feel appropriate.